How to use five elements power in combat fighting?

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by feng, Jun 13, 2013.

  1. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    You're not saying that 'blood power' doesn't exist, are you? I'm gutted.... :cry:
  2. AndrewTheAndroid

    AndrewTheAndroid A hero for fun.

    I thought that there was only power in kings blood.
  3. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    It doth cure scrofula but no other pox
  4. Wooden Hare

    Wooden Hare Banned Banned

    Earth crushes, water smashes, fire blasts, metal cuts, wood squeezes.

    That's how I see it, at least.
  5. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Squeezing wood is certainly accurate....
  6. IMAS

    IMAS Banned Banned

    It all depends how you view power, as we get energy from our blood. In fact it is easier to talk about blood power than meridian [Qi] power, or be like water.
  7. IMAS

    IMAS Banned Banned

    Good, now we have position power after lineage power and experience power.
  8. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Or "oxygen" as people sometimes call it...... :rolleyes:

    Except from you of course...what was your lineage again?
  9. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Based on some of IMAS' statements regarding TC/HI/PK areas I'd say even if it's 20 years experience it obviously must be very limited experience in that arena.

    It's fine to discuss things and ask questions but some things require an experiential base to have either a meaningful discussion or even to ask meaningful questions-or comprehend the answers.

    From the "neutralization" thread - " To issue a force from a static position and has some impact is not so simple, may be you can elaborate a bit more before we continue on neutralization. "

    If I need to elaborate on such a basic I think that's rather revealing.
  10. feng

    feng Banned Banned

    Hello, IMAS:
    What is Tai Chi?
    Tai Chi is basic on traditional Chinese I Ching Yin Yang and Bagua theory, absorb traditional Chinese Medicine meridian knowledge and Qi Gong breathing, Dao Yin and meditation healing exercise together with Martial Arts self defense meaning inside of the body exercise. Tai Chi's movement is circle slowly with smoothly breathing, Tai Chi's power is combined muscle's hard power with internal energy(Qi) move in the meridians' soft power. the practitioner should coordinate body, mind and spirit as one united during Tai Chi exercise. Tai Chi is ancient Kung Fu, and is the oldest Martial Arts in the world. Tai means huge, Chi means unlimited energy. Tai Chi is the Martial Arts through practice to get huge and unlimited energy.

    Link removed

    Link removed

    Yes, about Xing Yi Quan the five elements fists, the Qi is come from Ren4 the yin meridians, but there is little different: Li meridian is metal Pi Quan, Liver/Pc meridian is wood Beng Quan, Kidney/Ub meridian is water Zuan Quan, Heart/Si meridian is fire Pao Quan, Spleen/Lu meridian is earth Heng Quan. They also have yang meridians inside but it is after heaven Qi.
    Tai Chi is little different, the Qi can come from yin or yang meridians both, include preheaven and afterheaven Qi.

    Link removed

    feng, pimping or advertising your own site is against the ToS.

    Once you have anough posts you are permitted a subtle link as part of your signature.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 20, 2013
  11. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    That's funny - the verifiable history of Tai Chi puts it more like 400 years old, if I remember correctly...
    Even the mythical origins of Tai Chi don't qualify as the 'oldest' martial art in the world...

    Tai = Supreme (Although my prefered, unliteral translation is 'Infinate')
    Chi/Ji = Ultimate

    This is nothing to do with 'energy'. Tai Chi (philo.) is the interplay between Yin and Yang.
    Yin is said to characterise that which is infinate - something that is soft, yielding and has no outer limit.
    Yang is said to characterise that which is Ultimate; if something has an 'ultimate point' then that is a final boundary, an end point.

    Yin = Without limit
    Yang = With limit

    Tai Chi Chuan is a martial art that is based on this theory of interplay. It primarily uses 'Yin' techniques, because they require relatively less power to utilise, however switches to 'Yang' techniques when the opportunity arises.

    On the original topic of 5 Elements:

    In Tai Chi Chuan, the 5 Elements refer to footwork methods and strategies.
    My teacher related the elements as:

    Metal – Forward
    Wood – Backward
    Water – Left
    Fire – Right
    Earth – Center (non-movement)

    Using this for fighting:

    1) Forward Movement (Metal):
    Is Strong Against – Maintaining Centre (Earth) & Backward Movement (Wood)
    If the opponent tries to maintain his ground whilst you move forward, he will present an easy target, whilst if he tries moving backwards, he is putting himself on the back-foot and you control the engagement.
    Is Defeated By – Left Movement (Water) & Right Movement (Fire)
    Pretty obvious - if you attack forward and your opponent moves out of your line of intent, he can enter from the sides where you are weaker.

    2) Backward Movement (Wood):
    Is Strong Against – Maintaining Center (Earth) & Left Movement (Water)
    If your opponent maintains his position and shows no intention to come forward, then backing off can provide you either with an escape route or time to rethink strategy.
    With regards to Left Movement - if we assume a right-foot lead stance, if the opponent moves to our left, attemping to attack on the inside, moving back can disrupt his angle of attack and force him to reconsider. Similarly, if we are in a left-lead stance, and the opponent moves to his left, attempting the same approach as above, then we can defeat his intention.

    Is Defeated By – Right Movement (Fire) & Forward Movement (Metal)
    Again, if we assume a right-lead stance, and the opponent attacks from our right, movement back does not 'bring our weapons to bare' on him as he approaches our outer gate. He can close in on us if we don't adjust our own angle.
    As stated above, if your opponent moves forward and we move backwards, we are allowing ourselves to be controlled and are not taking advantage of his forward movement.

    3) Maintaining Centre (Earth):
    Is Strong Against – Left Movement (Water) & Right Movement (Fire)
    If the opponent is trying to circle us, maintain our position but keep him in our sights (ie, turning on the spot). Then we can look back at the classics regarding "when my opponent doesn't attack, I don't attack - when my opponent attacks, my counter hits first"
    Is Defeated By – Forward Movement (Metal) & Backward Movement (Wood)
    Again, if you maintain your ground when the opponent advances, you risk getting run down.
    If you allow your opponent to back off, he goes out of your reach, and you are missing the oppotunity to dominate his movement and overcome him.

    4) Right Movement (Fire):
    Is Strong Against – Forward Movement (Metal) & Backward Movement (Wood)
    If the opponent moves forward, then moving out of his line of intent, either left or right, can put you in a dominant position, where can cannot defend.
    Assuming your opponent has a left lead stance, as he moves back, approach him from your right, and you can close him down from his outer gate.

    Is Defeated By – Left Movement (Water) & Maintaining Centre (Earth)
    If you move to your right, and your opponent moves to your left, you end up circling**, and no advancement is made towards defeating him.
    Again, if you move right and your opponent is maintaining his ground whilst observing you, he is lying in wait for you to commit.

    5) Left Movement (Water):
    Is Strong Against – Right Movement (Fire) & Forward Movement (Metal)
    **Following on from above, circling can also be a positive thing, in that it allows you time to assess your opponent.
    Regarding the opponents forward movement, it's the same as above regarding our right movement.

    Is Defeated By – Maintaining Centre (Earth) & Backward Movement (Wood)
    Again, it's the counter-side of above. If you are attempting to change your angle of approach, whilst the opponent keeps his centre ground, he can keep you in his sights whilst you expend energy trying to get the upper hand.
    Regarding backwards movement, if you are moving to the sides, and fail to take the opportunity to chase him down once you get your angle, his backwards movement will quickly negate any possible advantage you may have achieved.
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2013
  12. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    The oldest TCMA system is Shuai Chiao (Chinese wrestling).

    Do you know that Taiji came from the longfist system? There is even a "Chen Taiji 108 Posture Long Fist" form.

    [ame=""]Chen Taiji 108 Longfist - YouTube[/ame]
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2013
  13. Wooden Hare

    Wooden Hare Banned Banned

    The ancestor of Shuai jiao, Jiao di (角抵), is actually the oldest (2600 BC), and Jiao Li (角力) during the Zhou Dynasty is the second oldest.

    Jiao Di was basically wrestling with horned helmets. Jiao Li added non-wrestling elements like striking.

    The common use of the term "shuai jiao" didn't come about until the 20th century.
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2013
  14. feng

    feng Banned Banned

    "Tai Chi" is come from <I CHING - Xi Ci Shang> original sentence: "Yi has Tai Chi, then born 2 appearance, 2 appearance born 4 images, 4 images born 8 guas, 8 guas control good or bad conditions, good or bad conditions control the things future's development." The <I Ching> was come from six thousand years ago ancient Chinese history. So Tai Chi at least has 6000 years history in China.
  15. IMAS

    IMAS Banned Banned

    Wuji just means infinite, the concept of Taiji from Wuji as formed during the Song Dynasty (960-1279).
  16. AndrewTheAndroid

    AndrewTheAndroid A hero for fun.

    Wuji and wu xing are not the same thing.
  17. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    You state "in THE striking model" implying that there is only one. In fact there are several striking models. Five animals fighting theory and five elements fighting theory are two such models. Your vector model is OK as far as calculating forces but takes no account of the strategic advantage of getting behind an opponent in a fight.

    ALL models are a simplification of the world. Therefore in a sense, all models are wrong. What is important is how a model affects your understanding of the real world. If a model brings new understanding then it is useful.
  18. IMAS

    IMAS Banned Banned

    You are right, actually the pinyin Wu can be a number of different characters in Chinese.
  19. feng

    feng Banned Banned

    The concept of Taiji from Wuji is from I Ching

    The concept of Taiji from Wuji is from I Ching original sentence which is come from <I CHING - Xi Ci Shang>: "Yi has Tai Chi, then born 2 appearance, 2 appearance born 4 images, 4 images born 8 guas, 8 guas control good or bad conditions, good or bad conditions control the things future's development." At here, Yi means Wuji condition. This is come from four - six thousand years ago ancient Chinese Taoism I Ching theory.
  20. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    That is quite frankly absolute hyperbolic nonsense - and smells of "cut and paste" too

    It's like claiming CACC is thousands of years old because the Ancient Greeks wrestled - and it is equally fatuous a claim
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2013

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