How to define Bujinkan?

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Jason Overlord, Apr 29, 2010.

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  1. Jason Overlord

    Jason Overlord Valued Member

    Hi there, everyone.

    I've been reading discussions on Bujinkan, taijutsu and ninjutsu for ages and yet I haven't seen a definitive explanation of what Bujinkan actually is. Some say it's ancient budo, some say it's practical modern self defence, some say it's a complete martial art and some say it is lacking in key areas that need to be trained elsewhere. Then there's the criticisms and conflicting praises of how it's trained.

    So, what is the Bujinkan? What is the style? Surely, after all this time, it can be classified and described as easily as any other martial art.

    I have some experience of the Bujinkan and I have my own ideas, but I'd like to hear others' descriptions based on facts, rather than theories.

    Cheers.
     
  2. Bronze Statue

    Bronze Statue Valued Member

    The only person who gets to define what Bujinkan is is a certain Mr. Hatsumi.

    As for whether it's worthwhile for your practice or what purpose it serves or doesn't serve, that'd best be found via visiting local dojos of that art.
     
  3. campsinger

    campsinger Valued Member

    Welcome to the crowd.

    Yep, that about sums it up.


    Nope



    That all helped a lot, now did't it? :confused:

    The best advice I can give you is to drop into a dojo and check it out in person. Either the teacher and the combination of what they are doing and how they are imparting the knowledge will strike a chord with you or it won't.

    I've been training for almost 23 years and unfortunately I still have to take the Bujinkan on a case by case basis. Some teachers I trust and respect greatly (some of them are on this forum), the rest I try to ignore unless they are in my area, in which case I take a "personal interest" in their presence.

    Good luck on your journey and your search.
     
  4. Muawijhe

    Muawijhe Dreams of Madness

    Hi, my first post here, too.

    From what I understand (from an outsider's standpoint, or rather my viewpoint as an outsider, as I don't train with the BBT), is that the Bujinkan is an organization created by Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi, the thirty-fourth master of the Togakure-ryu ninjutsu tradition. The Bujinkan, as an organization, teaches Dr. Hatsumi's take on the ninjutsu tradition (and just what ninjutsu is can be pretty vague, and I have some great links to other forums discussing that along with discussion on the changes made to the ryuha by Dr. Hatsumi, but I'm not sure what the ToS says about linking to other forums).

    Anyway, the Bujinkan encompasses many things beyond just budo taijutsu (the physical martial art aspect). It has its own philosophies, for self defence and living your life, to self protection (anti-surveillance, etc.), and what have you. What all is encompassed I can't say for sure, and don't want to put my foot too far into my mouth, lol. :confused:

    Of the budo taijutsu part, also from my understanding, it comprises 9 different ryu, which have a long lineange into the history books, yet can be used as practical modern self defense. As with all things, it's not perfect; lacking in areas and excelling in others. My personal opinion is that cross-training done properly (however that is done) is a very good, healthy thing.

    As for the training methods, again I can't say with certainty because I don't train with the Bujinkan. However, I think every martial art has its beliefs and philosophies on how training should be done, and maybe ninjutsu gets a little more flak for it online, but who is counting? :hat:

    Like all arts, I think training depends on the school, the instructor, and what you do outside of class. As campsinger said, best thing to do is to check out a local dojo for a few classes, see if it's your thing. I'm sure they could answer this question better than me. So there is an outsider's viewpoint (well, my viewpoint as an outsider). Hope that helped! :cool:
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2010
  5. Jason Overlord

    Jason Overlord Valued Member

    Thanks for your reply, Bronze Statue.

    When you say that only Hatsumi gets to define the Bujinkan, you are pretty much doing what inspired me to start this thread.

    I find it strange that people train in the art and yet can't (or wont) define it properly.

    campsinger, thanks for your reply also.

    When you say you 'have to take the Bujinkan on a case by case basis', that seems to be an odd outlook for someone of your experience.

    If the Bujinkan could be properly defined, then it would be possible to dismiss those you say you ignore as not practicing Bujinkan. After all, there must be a right and wrong way to practice Bujinkan based on what the Bujinkan is and isn't.

    So, what is it? How do you define it and why do you define it thus? Surely it comes down to what Hatsumi does and doesn't do. I would imagine that anyone training for a long time in the Bujinkan must be confident of what its founder says and teaches. If not, then you're just doing your own thing with nothing but a name ('Bujinkan') to describe what you do and to link you with other practitioners.

    Is it because the Bujinkan is so undefined that it is taught by so many people of differing skill and understanding?

    I find it amazing that there can be so much confusion/disagreement amongst the practitioners of one martial art.
     
  6. Bronze Statue

    Bronze Statue Valued Member

    It's not strange at all that they'd do so. That's because it's not theirs to define. Such is the nature of any art, martial or otherwise, whose organization is via the soke system.

    It's not that amazing, really. Examine karate, or iaido. Neither is remotely monolithic.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2010
  7. deivu

    deivu Valued Member

    Jason,

    Are you more interested in the Bujinkan as an orginization or the martial arts aspect of the Bujinkan?

    The best way to get a better understanding of any martial art is to find a local dojo and take a class. Ask questions and research the answers they give you. See if they match up with what your goals are. I personally believe BBT is an effective martial art, but like most things it has to be practiced correctly. Good luck finding the answers to your questions.
     
  8. campsinger

    campsinger Valued Member

    Take into consideration what an individualistic art the Bujinkan is, which makes it exceedingly different from the vast majority of martial arts.

    Yes, properly defining it would be immensely helpful, but that isn't my responsibility.... that is Soke's, just as Bronze Statue stated. I believe that Soke knew the definition intrinsically because of his close association with Takamatsu-sensei. He probably therefore assumed that any of his students would also intrinsically know the definition, and it didn't need to be said in black and white. This worked well as long it was only Japanese students studying a Japanese art.

    As soon as gaijin entered the picture, it kinda all went to hell. That was partially due to the foreign students not having the long-time exposure to Soke that the Japanese students did. Studying at hombu for a couple months or even a year or two is not the same as weekly for decades.

    For example, Dale Seago is a jugodan, and quite proficient in the Bujinkan with well over 20 years of training and alot of time training with Soke personally. But I'm sure Dale would be the first to agree that it isn't even close to compare him with Oguri, Seno, Nagato, or Noguchi shihans, who are also jugodans, because of their constant exposure to Soke.

    That would be one reason why the Genbukan and the Jinenkan have far fewer issues with many things as opposed to the Bujinkan. Both Tanamura-sensei and Manaka-sensei watched the influx of gaijin into the Bujinkan and could see that they weren't getting the intrinsic understanding, and thus defined their organizations when the time came much clearer and more precise, and keep a firm guiding hand on the reins.

    Now Soke has defined the Bujinkan as far as a syllabus is concerned, albeit very loosely. He has said that one should know the Tenchijin Ryaku No Maki and pass the sakki test to achieve a godan rank, and that one should have a good heart. Defining what "knowing" the Tenchijin Ryaku No Maki means, and what having a "good heart" means, as well as what a student needs to know by any given rank is left up to the Shidoshi to figure out. My responsibility as a shidoshi is to make sure that any student of mine that I sponsor for the sakki test meets these requirements.

    Unfortunately, many shidoshi are lax in their responsibility, or perhaps more accurately, not as stringent in defining Soke's requirements. Hence the "case by case" basis. I've trained with blackbelts that should be low ranked kyu belts in my opinion, as well as green belts that should be nidans. As for why there are Shidoshi who can't find their butts with both hands, I don't know, nor do I presume to guess why Soke promoted them. He's the boss, he can do what he wants. Perhaps a better question would be why did their shidoshi sponsor them for the sakki test?

    I can't police the entire Bujinkan. I only have the authority to police my dojo. I personally extend that to the area I live in and try to ensure that anyone claiming to teach Soke's art in my area actually is, according to my definition. In the past I have spoken to such individuals either personally or to their teachers, depending on the situation.

    Yes, I am confident in what Soke says and teaches. That doesn't mean that I always understand it or have the pre-requisite skills to be able to do it.
     
  9. Ace of Clubs

    Ace of Clubs Banned Banned

    A definition...

    Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (武神館武道体術). Bujinkan (武神) can be interpreted as Divine Warrior Hall/Divine Hall of Warriorship. Budo (武道) is the way of war/the teachings of war. Taijutsu (体術) which, in my dictionary, is defined as a classical form of martial arts, but in the Bujinkan it is considered as an all encompassing term which details everything that we do.
     
  10. Hissatsu

    Hissatsu End of the Road: Moved On

    I'm calling shenanigans right here (post one).

    There is no way you have experience with the BJK and still manage to ask that question (doubly so with the "based on facts" comment).

    Not biting.

    -Daniel
     
  11. Nick Mandilas

    Nick Mandilas Resistance is an option..

    Trip-trop Trip-trop trip-trop...
     
  12. fakii

    fakii Valued Member

    lolx here we go again another thread about bujinkan but no one is able to define about this art exactly what the person asked. All the people keep saying go to local dojo and find yourself if we have to do that then why we started a thread in here? You people went to your dojo some of you from ages maybe he went and could not find the answer thats why he is asking here. So if someone from you people use to attend bujinkan dojo then answer him in the best form so he can understand
     
  13. Muawijhe

    Muawijhe Dreams of Madness

    There's only so much that can be given, in my opinion, over the internet.

    It's a subtle difference between asking what milk is and how milk tastes. If someone asks about milk, in general, it could be assumed they're asking what makes it up as well as what it tastes like. And what it tastes like is unique to each individual, and best experienced by having a glass of milk.

    But, drinking a glass of milk no further tells you what milk is than the process of how it is made or procured tells of the taste.

    Our mind is our "6th sense", and sure we can feed it with answers from the internet, books, TV, etc., we must feed the body, too. As such, it's great to ask here about a martial art, but at the same time I advise taking a class to "get a taste". And as much of the world is shaped by our perception, even then 20 years from now what you think of milk and Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu will likely be different, especially wether you had a glass/trained every day, or but once in that 20 years. A milk from one cow/distributor make taste different from another (same for dojos/instructors/philosphies even within a martial art).

    I guess to wrap my horrible analogy up, it's not a bad thing to ask on the internet, it's not a bad thing to try for yourself, but often there's a distinction between the two that is lost. If you ask/do one thing, you may get the opposite answer/result from your expectations, which will likely be different form the presumptions and expectations of the one answering/training you. It's like you asking what it is, and they are telling you to go taste it. You ask how it tastes, they're telling you what it is made of. Make sense? :confused:
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2010
  14. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    The Bujinkan is an organization.

    Thread closed.
     
  15. Nick Mandilas

    Nick Mandilas Resistance is an option..

    true...maybe... but how do you really define any art? If someone said define Muay Thai boxing... would "punching, kicking, knee and elbow strikes" be sufficient? I would say there is more to it than that, but my definition is not wrong.

    For me, this art is a tactical one. It is better suited to fighting when the distance is already closed as opposed to "squaring off" and is also better suited to attacks that are committed ...more so like you might find in a realistic situation. There is a focus on taking balance and space.

    Is that what you wanted to hear?
     
  16. fakii

    fakii Valued Member


    totally agreed
     
  17. fakii

    fakii Valued Member

    lol exactly .. don't get mad at me brother its just most of the time people forget about the real thread and start talking about this vs that that was my point. sorry if i hurt someone.
     
  18. Jason Overlord

    Jason Overlord Valued Member

    With the exception of Daniel Weidman's post (which isn't even worth responding to), thanks to everyone so far for at least saying something other than calling me a troll or insinuating as much. I've been reading MA forums for years and I was expecting the usual 'go to a dojo' and 'ask Hatsumi' suggestions.

    I started this thread to see if anyone could actually intelligently define the Bujinkan as a martial art. The idea being that adult human beings post their grown-up thoughts, instead of ribbing the 'newbie'.

    Rubber Tanto has come closest so far.
     
  19. Jason Overlord

    Jason Overlord Valued Member

    Oh, and thanks also to campsinger for your time and effort.

    I do have some experience with the Bujinkan, so going to a dojo will simply further what I already know (or confuse it more). That is why I mentioned it in my opening post.

    Having seen many questions put up on this and other MA forums, I'm not surprised to see the doubting and non-committed responses. I guess there are a lot of jaded X-Kaners out there with more than a chip on their collective shoulders, when it comes to discussing their martial art with people who aren't part of the club or who aren't established as being 'harmless'.

    The question raised in my thread-starter remains, however, for anyone interested in answering it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2010
  20. Bronze Statue

    Bronze Statue Valued Member

    So you knew enough to expect that response? What else were you waiting for then?

    The reason they are "usual" responses is because in any art with the soke system, whether martial or otherwise, the soke 'owns' the art and is the sole representative and decision-maker in those and most related matters.

    One Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu instructor in Canada eh describes the concept of soke-ship pretty well in one of his articles:

    So basically, Bujinkan is whatever Mr. Hatsumi says it is, and that's how it'll remain until the day comes that he is no longer soke. If he decides during his next training session to change his mind (or solidify his current opinion) about what he feels Bujinkan is or should be defined as, that's his prerogative, and not that of any of the other members.

    There certainly is such a person who can do so. He goes by the name of Hatsumi, if you have not yet figured that out.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2010
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