How do you practice/teach sparring?

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by Convergencezone, Oct 12, 2011.

  1. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Have just watched that RNC escape from standing – am not that impressed or convinced by it. He mentions that it is useful for self-defence. It's far too complicated for a middle-aged woman (for example) to perform against a younger and stronger male attacker. Once someone is behind you, especially with their arm around your neck, the lights can go out pretty quick. You could ask, 'How did I allow that to happen?', but anyway. As it's a SoB situation – and no, I don't mean Son of a B either!

    My advice to that woman would be to stomp down hard on the attacker's foot and immediately twist the right hip out to the side in order to clear a path for a back elbow thrust, followed immediately by a hammer fist and forearm strike to his nether regions two or more times.

    Or else, the defender could simply drop the left hand down, as soon as they were grabbed from behind, and perform the infamous Vinnie Jones manoeuvre instead!
     

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  2. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Yeah, I thought that entire leg entanglement business a bit complicated as well. It did show to go to the crook of the elbow, however.

    In a standing situation, I would attempt a hip throw or leg sweep. If using the same side as the video, your right leg would come from outside in an arc while twisting to your left - an easy enough maneuver (i.e. the leg sweep) even for your "middle-aged woman" argument, Pugil. :cool:
     
  3. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Fundamentally relatively sound advice but I had a "World Taekwondo Federation" moment at this.....

    Look at the eyes - why? "See into their soul"

    Seriously?

    Absolute nonsense with no a single shred of basis in reality or pragmatism. It is not just erroneous it is flat out hokum that has no place in a combat system
     
  4. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    If you don't like that terminology, perhaps it might work for you if changing "soul" to "intent." Quite often people will *betray* their intent with their eyes or eye movement (e.g. a quick glance at the target they're about to strike). Using "soul" is merely a more *figurative* way of stating this, but it doesn't alter the outcome in the slightest. :rolleyes:




    And NOW for my beef with the Golden Rules stated above...

    That's a fairly well thought out scheme, Pugil. :happy: However, I don't agree with EVERYTHING.

    With respect to GR #2, if you mean the *hopping around* business that some fighters do, I disagree. You shouldn't just stand motionless, but quite often people have a difficult time creating a *broken rhythm* with a continuous readjustment of position, and a superior fighter can use the rhythmic undulations against you.

    While I do agree with GR #3, I don't agree with your reason. I've seen more KO's come from hits to the neck than the jaw (and will discuss in detail below). I also disagree with GR #4, as one of the things I try to emphasize with my take on MA, is to train in such a way as to be as ambidextrous as possible (you don't always get the luxury of having an attack come at the side of your choosing, or from some other preferred angle). FWIW, I switch my lead whenever I want, and still manage to be "totally organized" when fighting.



    For the jaw vs. neck argument, it's good to know that blows to the chin or jaw, rarely have enough force to cause unconsciousness (i.e. they lack sufficient energy and are usually delivered at a non-optimal angle to create the coup/contrecoup trauma in the brain which leads to a blackout). OTOH, blows to the neck will often mess with blood pressure regulation carried out by the body, which corrects the imbalance by making it easier for the heart to pump blood to the brain (i.e. horizontal vs. vertical posture).

    Let's turn to boxing for an example... Lots of times when doing commentary on the replay (with stop-motion & slow-mo effects), the sports announcer will give a play-by-play, often glossing over the actual knock-out blow to the neck as part of a flurry of punches delivered quickly in the general area of the head, and erroneously highlight the [last] punch to the chin (which merely knocks the guy down, but not out) as the "knock-out punch." I've seen this exact same scenario happen countless times (i.e. the announcer isolating the *wrong* punch as the cause of the KO), that I stopped trying to convince myself that punches to the jaw alone are the cause of a KO (i.e. many times the glove will *overlap* onto the side of the neck near the angle of the jaw which is near the area of the jugular vein/carotid artery/vagus nerve convergence). The sternocleidomastoid muscle does tend to cover this sensitive area, but it can't protect it completely from a forceful blow (IOW, if not a KO, then at least a TKO is the result). I also admit that it's difficult to attack this area if the person stays "turtled up" (i.e. keeping the chin tucked close to the sternum with the shoulders slightly shrugged). But I knew an instructor who had a remedy for this (i.e. how to circumvent turtling up), which was to target the brachial plexus of nerves instead, as the subclavian artery is adjacent to it and therefore hitting here works in similar fashion to the other convergence of KO apparatus found higher up in the neck. But since it's located where the neck & shoulder meet (just above the bend in the collar bone), it's relatively easy to target by laying your forearm in there really hard with all your weight (I call this maneuver, a "brachial thump"). It practically guarantees a KO/TKO. ;)

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I did not think it literally meant soul you know! :)

    It is still nonsense as soon as you are fighting anyone who is not an absolute beginner. The eyes can occasionally show fear, but the rest of the body gives that away far better. "Look at the eyes" is yet another martial myth that should have been lost long ago IMO

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aZ2bdnG97A"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aZ2bdnG97A[/ame]

    I look at the chest area as often as not, although to be honest I don't actually look at anything really...I just get a sense of periphery against the person I am sparring. The chest area tends to give movement away without committing to a feint or fake to catch out my defence/counter
     
  6. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Yes, I did indeed mean 'see their intent' rather than actually 'see into their soul'. It's written for Savate, an art that requires the wearing of Boxing style gloves – in the sport version. Which is why it is actually a fact in Savate (like in Western Boxing) that the majority of knockouts come from the jaw being struck. It's not even the same as MMA or the UFC where much smaller gloves are worn.

    In actual fact, I did not write the original of that at all. It was adapted from something that former Savate legend, Gilles Le Duigou, wrote on a whiteboard during a training seminar he did for us in Cambridge some years ago. As I intimated, Gilles was a Savate Champion in his time, who famously fought a kickboxing fight against a Japanese fighter, knowing that his arm was broken (badly) in the first round of the fight. He eventually won the fight by stopping the Japanese fighter, several rounds later, with a round kick to the liver, I believe. After the fight, X-Rays showed that he had in fact got two broken arms. He still has a steel plate in one of his arms. I'll try to find the video of that fight and post it for you. I can also tell you that he never takes his eyes off you when sparring, and I mean staring you constantly in the eyes!

    The other thing about 'hopping around' as you put it Unk, that it is again written for Savate – the clue is the words at the very top of the page! I'll tell you why it's necessary in Savate: If you don't move your legs pretty much continuously, you get your knees kicked by an opponent wearing boots on his or her feet. I've mentioned this before!

    In 2005, I took a supposed Kickboxing double Champion, Eastern Area and British, to Annecy in France to fight in the final elimination's for the Savate Combat [full-contact strikes] World Championships. He trained briefly with us before the competition but, like you, couldn't see the point of moving around whilst fighting, so he didn't. He drew the young French Champion, Lionel Maurey, in his first fight. Maurey destroyed him with kicks to the legs (including to the knees) inside one minute of the first round!

    This is Maurey in action: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlQGODJvPzY"]Lionel MAUREY... à voir absolument - YouTube[/ame]
     

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  7. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Here you go with the video I spoke of. I don't have all the info directly to hand, but I should also mention that he fought in something like 106 competitive fights in all, losing around half a dozen or so only. So when someone like him tells me to 'look in the eyes' of an opponent, you can bet your life that I will damn well do so, rather than listen to advice from theory fighters – with the greatest respect to any Champions reading this!

    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7uw2j_leduigou-vs-ishima_sport
     
  8. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    There, I've deleted the offending post now. I really can't be bothered to try to help people on here anymore. It ain't worth the aggro!
     
  9. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Ignoring the arguing on this thread.
    Heres my contribution.
    I don't teach, we have a wrestling coach, but i run through some jiujitsu style drills so that open matt sessions don't devolve into mess of unspecific randori without any set objective.
    I'm going to start stealing some info from this: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1074536325#post1074536325
    I'll work on variations later once we've drilled through basic positions.
    Eventually we'll split the class work on personalised escapes and submissions for more advanced guys (The Testing Ground) while we have drills for new guys.

     
  10. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    I'd like to know how Hu-Bad works!

    Also if you guys have any suggestions please say.

    I saw the stuff at the Rick young escrima class and some of Koyo's vids and i really like the energy drill stuff similar to hu-bad.

    How can i work that in for standing and ground grappling?
     
  11. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Think of it as a series of reference points done from movement as opposed to isolated positions
     
  12. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    i dont understand...
     
  13. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Sheesh! Don't be such a grumpy old fart. I can't speak for Hannibal, but I didn't find the post "offensive"in the least. No matter, I have that image saved. ;)

    And here's some aggravation for ya (hehe), if you check back (to what is now post #84) you'll see I never said NOT to move around in a fight. But just so you know, I'm fairly good when it come to reading rhythmic tendencies, and therefore if doing that bouncy hopping that some fighters adopt, I will still manage to take out the knee (while not allowing the same sort of knee attacks seen in savate, I do like to allow stop-block kicks to the knee - i.e. where you place your foot just above your opponent's knee so they can't lift it, and I shouldn't have to explain how well this thwarts a kick). I also allow foot slaps to the thigh as a *distraction* technique where a kick aimed higher up the body is followed by the initial distraction (it has a VERY strong tendency to draw the person's attention to their legs, thus leaving their head or upper torso wide open for a combination kick). So even though not training under the savate rules of engagement, I think I could adapt to them fairly easily as opposed to those KMAists who don't allow ANY kicks to the legs (although FWIW I'm not about to take up a different MA and enter the sport circuit, so I'm not talking about heavy duty competition or anything, just friendly sparring).
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2011
  14. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Ref Gilles Le Duigou:

    114 Competitive Fights
    60+ Savate Combat – full-power strikes, Assaut (controlled-contact) didn't exist in the 80's.
    20 Boxing – including 6 Pro fights, 4 wins & 2 losses.
    14 Kickboxing – kicks above the waist only and a
    similar number of Full Contact Kickboxing bouts (kicks to all levels)

    I believe he won 106 of his 114 fights. Two of his Coaches included Dominic Valera and Francois Petit Demange.

    With regards to looking or not looking into someone's eyes:
    Have a heated discussion with a Door Supervisor at a Night Club, or with a Police Officer, etc. See where they look when they are dealing with you!

    As for lead switching: When it comes to play fighting, and fighting for real, there are very few World Champion Boxers, Muay Thai or Savate fighters who regularly switch from one lead to another. I suggest that anyone who believes otherwise should go visit a Boxing Gym and see how they get on against even a half-decent Boxer.

    And finally: I have to say that I truly believe that someone such as a professional boxer, for example, stands head and shoulders above 99% of so-called 'martial artists' and 'hard men' when it comes to overall fitness and conditioning, 'sheer guts' and in actual experience of full-contact fighting!

    To illustrate better how I feel about this matter -- and by way of giving a partial review -- I'll quote a section from the book entitled: 'BareFists - A World of Violence Where Only The Brutal Survive', written by Bob Mee. (He puts it rather better than I could have done)

    "Hard men of the street have always loitered on the edge of boxing. They combine a respect for boxers with an unspoken arrogance that, given the right circumstances, a fair shake, a nod in this direction or a wink in that, they could be better than any man on the planet. This is very easy to do -- any one of us are potential could-have-beens -- and is also a complete nonsense. There is a huge gulf between a fit man trained in the craft of the professional ring and a street thug. This is not to say that in a back alley somewhere the thug might prevail. Anything can happen in those circumstances. However, 'hard men' like to cultivate the legend that they will always prevail, both in the ring and out, which is not based on fact."

    To which, I personally, would add that a lot of martial artists like to cultivate a similar kind of myth!
     
  15. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    The Bull and the Matador (or how a fighter who is good on his feet, and who has a variety of 'tools in his box', can prevail against someone more powerful, but with limited footwork and a lack of variety in the skills area):

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH-GRgYVbAc"]PENNACCHIO-DEKKER - YouTube[/ame]
     
  16. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Hu-bad is an energy-exchange and sensitivity and reaction enhancement drill that can be used to compliment, just about any martial art, especially those where the hands are kept mainly up.

    There are numerous YouTube videos on the subject, but the trouble is that there are good, bad and indifferent ones to be found. But most seem to fall in the latter two categories. So it's a case of 'sorting the wheat from the chaff'.

    Try watching this guy's video clip (1 of 5): [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuHQhSThvIA"]JKD Hubud Part 1 of 5 - Jeet Kune Do Sensitivity Drills - John Koeshall.mov - YouTube[/ame]
     
  17. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    You get your training partner to top-mount you and then you can work the same drill. In effect, your partner is hitting down on you, and you are defending and hitting up towards him. You can also practice it where your partner feeds lefts and rights in, and you work on redirecting and catching the blows.

    Here is a seated version of a similar drill from Silat: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ecUJdZPDZI"]silat Basic blocks - YouTube[/ame]
     
  18. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Can't speak for every service out there, but we are told specifically NOT to do this - certainly not for protracted periods. It is seen as overly confrontational on the one hand, but it also prevents full awareness. As a rule we are taught to "scan" when dealing with people

    "Switch hitters" are indeed very few - I gave up on this idea (namely equal proficiency) some time ago

    I do however train both sides on a 80/20 ratio (sometimes 90/10) simply because I never know if I will be wrong footed. Also kicks can cause an "involuntary switch" on occasion and i like to have at least some measure of response.

    I have and always will maintain that it is "attributes" not "techniques" that win fights - and pro full contact fighters train these beyond the measure of ANY other martial artist because it is their job to do so

    QFT!

    There are a few exceptions who can handle themselves in both, but even there it is pretty poor when compared to a professional (Shaw & Mclean spring to mind). That said I would NOT have wanted any part of Lenny on the cobbles

    Even more so in my experience! MMA has put an end to much of the myth making but there is still massive resistance from the "staus quo" end of the scale who have years invested in myth, smoke and mirrors
     
  19. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    This is how I always used it certainly. This is an early Marc McFann video (who is awesome btw) and there is a very good example of ground hubud at 0:57 onwards

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbLqJBHWlCU"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbLqJBHWlCU[/ame]
     
  20. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    I've hosted Marc McFann for a seminar in Cambridge (UK), many years ago, and attended a couple of his seminars elsewhere, so you're preaching to the converted here!
     

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