Some more info. At the start of all this I started making my own enquiries. First of all I attempted to post some questions on one of the Hoshin yahoo groups, which Jen pointed me in the direction of, unfortunately my questions didn’t get posted. All I am doing here is showing the process I went through I’m not saying there was any underhandedness on the mods part with regards to my posts on the yahoo group. I got a message saying my post would have to be passed by a moderator (fair enough as I was a new guy) but didn’t see anything after that even though other users posts appeared on the board. Now I put that down to possible error on my part or perhaps my post being forgotten, going on what Jen told me I think the group had sparse moderation at the time due to various changes. Anyway I looked for other sources of info and in the end I did managed to get answers to my questions, in an email via a third party, from Mr Glimme. I’m not going to reproduce the whole mail here. What I got back was that Mr Glimme had not received any formal training in Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu nor had he seen the densho. His training was in Katori Ryu, which I take to mean Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu?, and that Hoshin’s founder felt that with this experience Mr Glimme could translate Niten Ichi Ryu into a sword curriculum for Hoshin. Going on what’s said in the mail. He feels that his Katori experience, along with studying Musashi’s works, could be applied to HNIR and points out that the Kata of the School are on the net for those that wish to look. Hope that has shed some more light on things. It does seem that Mr Glimme has no experience in Musashi’s school. Edited becuase I'm an idiot! I didn't post this initially as firstly I have been wrestling, for sometime now, with if I should or not and second I wanted to see if what was said in response to the questions matched up with the information in the e-mail. If as it appears the DVD contain the Kata, albeit demonstrated incorrectly, of Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu then, going on the information above, personally I feel there are some major problems. One there is the issue of the Kata being the property of the Ryu and it’s Soke and there is the issue of , in my opinion, misleading the consumer. If the claim was that the curriculum contained Kata developed by the teacher using the works of Musashi and perhaps other writings as a philosophical and strategic base, then I doubt if there would be this much fuss but sadly that doesn't seem to be the case.
Au contraire Mr Spooky, the DVDs actually DO show Musashi's sword techniques, but they are not very good - nor do they show the feeling required in order to do them correctly. The techniques I have seen so far have technical inaccuracies in each waza and misunderstandings in both the kamae and the ma-ai. If Mr Glimme has studied the techniques from video (internet), this would explain a lot - he does not understand the bunkai or the riai of HNIR seiho. Without understanding the seiho or the philosophy of HNIR, the DVDs would serve better as drinks coasters, should you feel the need for $55 beermats - anyone purchasing these and wanting to be the next Musashi is in for a shock... but hopefully can get a refund...
Glenn used to moderate that group, I thought it had been taken over by his wife, Have to check, sorry about that. The initial idea was to get a sword programme running for Hoshinka as an add-on, to help student's development, which is done in our system through specific feelings, chi work and movement. Glenn, being a huge fan of Musashi and go rin no sho, asked Ed to put something together based which would work with the godai principles embedded throughout the Hoshinjutsu curriculum. As folks have seen, the outer forms of the kata from Musashi's school are freely available on the web and known much more wideley that by HNIR practitioners. I very much doubt it even occoured to either Glenn or Ed that it would cause such a furore, or that this would be seen in some quarters as theft, since the information displayed is already available in the public domain for anyone to look at and the project was intended to gather what was out there and make it available for our fellow Hoshinka. Note I said "outer forms", ie omote. Yes, i'm sure HNIR as taught within the ryu is way, way more than that. I also apprecate that traditional Koryu practitioners (thanks for the link) look at their Art in a special way. Gord Hessie as current head of Hoshin Roshi Ryu Jutaijutsu Association has already stated he doesn't have a problem with what Ed-Kiyoshi has done at Glenn-soke's request. Hoshin is not Koryu, so by trying to impose koryu standards on us; do people then suggest then that Hoshin is Koryu or at least worthy of being judged by those standards? We are not. We are a modern ecclectic art, founded in America, taught by Americans and Canadians, and now some Europeans, with others dotted around the globe. By the nature of our eccelctic approach to bringing in martial material from around the world, our members go out and look for knowledge which might prove valuable. Hoshin started in an american college environment and it is in that spirit which we study, read the works of those who have gone before and try to further our knowledge. I'm sure there will be some further discussion of this within the Ryu as to how and where it is apropriate to do this in future, so in that sense I guess this has kicked off some useful debate and discussion within the Ryu. I can assure folks that the last thing Glenn would have wanted would be to upset anyone or cause offence. Hoshin IS a great system, I believe in what Dr. Morris developed and it's ability to develop people to their full potential, 100%. However, we're human and all that implies, nuff said. Jen.
Thanks, I know, it's just felt like "pick on Hoshinka" month a lot lateley. And Mr Wiedman did make it pretty clear what his intentions were and seemsed to have lost his temper, so you can see how I might get that feeling when somone mentioned they wanted to "do a Wiedman" on me..... Appreciate the advice and the link. All I want to do is get on with the business of what Hoshin and Budo is about; making tatsujin. (Yes, Hatsumi-Soke word. Yes, I know ) But i guess politics and such is part of the whole MA Path whether I like it or not. Kogusoku, I'm trying not to argue, I'm trying to stop people dragging Hoshin down because they are not happy with the way one aspect has been researched and presented. It's become irrelevent to me now whether what Ed-Kiyoshi has done is right or wrong since I've done all I can do to affect that matter, but i am heartily cheesed off with some people seeming to judge Hoshin as a system by this one incident. It's 2 cultures clashing i guess, Japanese and American, but that still doesn't invalidate the rest of what Dr. Morris and the other guys in the Ryu have put together. Nor the continued giri I have to Dr. Morris and his legacy. Hugs, Jen.
Well, since these outer forms as you refer to them are actually kata from Hyoho Niten Ichi-ryu, you have no argument here. They are from HNIR period. You go to Japan, and have some senior Japanese koryu teachers look at techniques ala the pepsi taste test challenge (Hide the name) and ten times out of ten, they'll know which ryuha it is from. People do their homework and do know their stuff. Then you'll appreciate why we have branded you as kata thieves. Then don't steal kata & waza from other ryuha. If that is so, then academically you will acknowledge what plagarism is then.
I've been lurking on this thread for a while now, and it's made for some interesting reading. I would think that anyone who thinks that it is possible to pick and choose pieces of different martial arts and incorporate them into a new system without years and years of dilligent study is kidding themself. Don't you think it's a bit insulting to people who have dedicated their lives to the study of of Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu to be producing video's where total amateurs are dancing their way through the waza of the school? These people wouldn't know sen sen no sen if it stabbed them in the throat.
How would Hoshin members feel if they discovered someone selling DVDs claiming to be teaching Hoshin material, without ever having studied Hoshin?
The stable door has been open a long time, the horse long bolted. Now you try to bar the door and suggest Hoshin are the thieves because the omote of your kata has leaked out to the public domain?!? If you are careless with your prized posessions, others will pick them up and use them if they do not hold the same cultural rules which are inherant to koryu. Ed-san, it seems, found what was already out in public, free for anyone to find. It seems HNIR are only now realising what had already happened to your much prized knowledge and trying to find a scapegoat for the accidental dissemination of that knowledge. I can appreciate both sides of this matter, however. Yes, i appreciate what plagiarism is, Kogusoku. However, if you check the website, it clearly says, "This work is a breakdown of Hoshin mentor Miyamoto Musashi sword techniques." Ed-Kiyoshi is not passing them off as his own, he is clearly giving credit to Musashi-sensei as the originator of the knowledge. Ergo, properly footnoted research. Plagiarism is the act of pretending the work is one's own. Hehe, trying to turn it around on us, eh Spooky? Then Hoshinroshiryu would be entitled to say, as HNIR have, that it is an incomplete reperesentation of our art in it's full glory. Come study with us to learn the full, correct version. As HNIR students and reperesentitives have done here and on Ebudo. What is presented as the "Hoshin Sword Curriculum" was never intended to be a full, nor in-depth reperesentation of Musashi's Art, that is a complete Ryu in and of it's self, and a lifetime of study, one could never do that in an add-on to an existing art. It's a tool to aid development. Personally I would smile and be happy if someone tried to copy Hoshinjutsu and say that people would now know about Hoshin and will find their way to Mama once they outgrow what is being shown in such a manner. (imitation is one of the greatest forms of flattery) People are smart enough to do that. A lot of the energy work can ONLY be passed on directly, there is no way you could film it or describe it, so we're pretty safe from anyone being able to copy it (and causing damage to student's chi) without coming learning off us. Even stuff on the Hoshinjutsu Earth DVD you couldn't replicate until somone showed you how. (the "distance learning programme", unlike other such inferior schemes, is strongly suported by hands-on seminars and mentors) We WANT the knowledge to get out there, because we want people to know about what Hoshin is all about. We want to improve people's lives with this material, the martial stuff is just the tip of the iceberg. Shoot me, I'm an altruist! A much different aproach to the secrecy and such inherant, as it has been explained to me, of Koryu MA. Equally, if somone had seen the Hoshin Sword dvds and was interested, I would point them in the direction of HNIR to learn the "real thing" in full depth. Product, not process. (Either that, or we send the tengu around to torment them, lol. ) Personally, I feel it is the learning experience which is most important, not necessarily the vehicle (ie specific knowledge) of exactly what is being taught. But that's just me and I'm wierd. :Angel: Jen.
Not really it was a genuine question. Besides I wanted to see what the reaction would be for my up and coming DVD release, which covers the Sword techniques of Hoshin Ryu As for the rest of the post well I'm off to get my pop corn have to say though this is a classic: Sorry I feel a Start Wars moment coming on! Qui-Gon Jinn: "Do you hear that?" [woshing noise] Jar Jar Binks: "Yeah" Obi-Wan: "Is that is the sound of a thousand terrible things headed this way Master?" Qui-Gonn Jinn: " No my young Padawan, that is the sound of someones credibility going out the window"
Go for it. Watch out for the HNIR guys though, lol. That's my personal, genuine answer. I don't worry about these things because I belive Karma sorts it's self out. But we're not here to discuss my spiritual beliefs just now. Ah, sarcasm. Riiiiiiight. Told you I'm wierd. Hugs, Jen.
And is all Bullshido in the worst sense. Want to add something to your eclectic art go and train in to to at least minimal proficiency. Ideally train in it until you get an actual teaching license. Then add it. Otherwise you have crap stew. :bang:
I agree. With Hoshinjutsu, that's what happens, people come in having plenty experience in other physical forms. The yadansha play with it, swap ideas, cook for a few years. Then the LEO's, security and military guys in the Ryu field test stuff. They have enough hands on time to be good at judging self defence stuff between them. Sorry for thread drift. Jen.
The Immortals from Highlander train in your dojo? Cool! (I can't imagine who else besides them would be in a position to field test Japanese sword techniques these days.)
