Home of Pencak Silat

Discussion in 'Silat' started by Van Zandt, Jun 20, 2008.

  1. Raden-Rahmat

    Raden-Rahmat Valued Member

    its your call i guess

    salam and hormat

    to Jebat
    ''And you think people weren't devided already?''
    i didnt suggest that...the division i referred is based upon my history and the people of south africa, specifically the malays. we were displaced only because of colonisation. division exists in any community'/nation, no doubt but it rarely (could be mistaken) results in displacement and total deprivation from the motherland and even resources being oppressively taken away when the division is of a local origin.

    ''So before the European colonialists came there was peace and everybody was together?''
    answer that yourself because im not here to act as an historian

    ''So no Kings and Sultans where fighting wars and colonializing each other, enslaving each other? No tribes where killing each other and cutting each other's heads off for over land and property? Every religion change was done in peace? lol......''
    answer would be relatively the same as first answer

    ''Another thing to think about: on how many occassions do you think Europeans have been colonized and devided by other people or countries.''
    this wouldnt relate to us but anyway ill attempt a logical approach which might not be the best method. here i go. europeans in my opinion., according to the history in secondary school (almost 10 years back), have been fighting for power on a scale higher than what was seen in Nusantara... when their quests ran dry, because every nation in europe now began getting tougher and tougher, their vision turned to asia to fight for the spice trade mafia tag. Maluku Islands suffered directly from this...we know this...we have links in south africa to Maluku islands. In no way do i dismiss the power raids of the mogol empire and those that followed and those in China. its been around all along in every corner of the world. but since our discussion revolved around nusantara, i made the comment in connection with the now-fragmented nusantara which was 1 in the period when Silat was discovered by the colonialists. and it isnt funny at all...not if you have been displaced and had to rediscover who you are today...

    to end it all, Nusantara is the melting pot of Silat styles and i cant see the idea behind finding a geographic spot of origin...

    to add to Mas Nazdrin...Silat also refers to connection if we considered the closest arabic term since we looking at the time when names changed. it could be plain physical or spiritual depending on history or even the teachings from the school. it mainly would be spiritual because of its arabic influence. Silat took on a moral reformation process when Islam and Sufism touched it since the meaning behind it was thought have the pesilat being representative of Gods divine will on earth...so Silat was a pesilats connection to the Divine Will. but everyone has their interpretations.

    good to know about various meanings cos it all has cultural origins...thats what life is about hey...learning
     
  2. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    I've asked about training with relatives in Indonesia, but apparently they won't teach outsiders, even those within the family. My wife is even barred from practising with her family members because she married a bule.

    Apparently they're very strict about tradition and rules because my wife's family has direct links to Pakubuwono X, who was a "King" so-to-speak in Surakarta. I've not seen any evidence of this but my wife's relatives in Indo are extremely wealthy and would be considered "stuck up" here in the West.
     
  3. Raden-Rahmat

    Raden-Rahmat Valued Member

    hmmm Pakobuwono

    so really hey...thing of royalty is long overdue...tho they must be respected...i dont acknowledge any highness as the english like calling their queen. id say youve made your bed now must sleep in it as my ppl say. really you have more choices than just learning her Silat whether its regarded as whatever...im not being nasty to tradition, im basically saying that if you cant get it right, theres more than just that...Silat is braod...im sorry if i was harsh to any of the tradition held in certain groups...but these days we must be open...to allow change and fusion...
     
  4. Gajah Silat

    Gajah Silat Ayo berantam!

    LOL I see:rolleyes: I must have got lucky with my inlaws then, they all seem quite fond of me....my mother in law especially:)

    I suppose it's a little different in the kampung....fathers, sons, uncles all sneak off to the clearing by the river at night for latihan. Still secret, but not at all stuck up. Anyway, the uncles want to ensure it can be passed on to their nephew.

    This little fellow:)
     

    Attached Files:

  5. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    Rahayu Pakde,
    Wah! Putrane Pakde Martin gagah luar biasa ... welcome to the World Association of Inter-cultural Families (W.A.I.F) :D.
    FYI we have English, Scottish, Danish, Chinese, Cherokee Indian, Mandinggo African and Arab in the extended family ... not including Melayu which is already a melting pot of races. Our family base is the true U.N.

    Super Foot ... it depends on your patience and how they perceive your attitude to be ... you will definitely need to become very Jawanese :D.
    However, there is no need to wait if you feel independent about it. Find a perguruan that accepts foreigners ... and don't forget that there are Chinese perguruan that are legitimate as well. The Chinese are woven into Indonesian traditional fabric ... you will still be learning silat ... ignore the "political snobbery" that you might encounter, the two cultures have been interwoven for as long as time even though that subject is taboo :rolleyes:.
    FWIW, here's another taboo assertion (well, often it is anyway) ... my father taught me that ima and cma have common roots.

    Salams and cheers,
    Krisno
     
  6. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    ... dash it all ... find any ma that vibrates with your psyche and suck the guts out of it ... how it shapes you and how you express yourself in every aspect of your living through that conduit is your silat. That is what silat is. That is following the spirit of the meaning of traditional silat. Other than that silat is just a word in a Jawanese lexicon ... it's the spirit of the idea that is important ... not that you learn jurus prawan (or joko) ngilo or what have you. That sounds esoteric, but what is it really? It is an expression of tangkis jotos= ngendo antem= elak tinju= dodge and strike= forward block and strike= cannon fist= pao-quan= fan through back ... etc.

    Salam sejahtera!
    Krisno

    The Edit : I apologise for saying Jawanese lexicon! I mean Melayu lexicon.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2008
  7. Pekir

    Pekir Valued Member

    Hormat Raden Rahmat,

    I'm not in the position to discuss your feelings and opinions on the forceful displacement of your ancestors from the nusantara. I myself can be considered a product of coloniasation but the circumstances are quite different.

    But if I understand you right your assumption that the "nusantara which was 1 in the period when silat was discovered by the colonialist" is somewhat incorrect from a historical perspective. The nusantara was a blanket of smaller and bigger kingdoms/sultanates and the etnic and cultural differences have always been present. The Madurese, Mollucans, Javanese, Sundanese, Aceh, Bugis, Menadonese etcetera etcetra all had their own 'way of living'. Some of the kingdoms/sultanates used the colonisers for their regional differences and the colonisers did it other way around. Some of the present tensions are to a certain extend (Aceh, Mollucas e.g) testimony of ancient 'differences'

    I'm afraid colonisation was the forefather of what we now know as globalisation... This doesn't mean I approve of colonisation!! (though I have to admit I wouldn't have been around if it didn't happen ;-) )

    To get back to the silat issue. What do you mean with "when Silat was discovered by the colonialists"

    Salaam,
    Patrick
     
  8. Saiful Azraq

    Saiful Azraq Valued Member

    Salam hormat,

    "welcome to the World Association of Inter-cultural Families (W.A.I.F) :D.
    FYI we have English, Scottish, Danish, Chinese, Cherokee Indian, Mandinggo African and Arab in the extended family ... not including Melayu which is already a melting pot of races. Our family base is the true U.N."


    Hey! I want a membership card too! My mother's family is Yemeni-Achehnese-Ceylonese-Melayu-Portuguese and my father's family is Indian-Persian-Melayu. My wife is Minang-Melayu with a possible Bugis and Chinese thrown in somewhere along the line and my daughter is confused. So, do I qualify?

    FWIW, here's another taboo assertion (well, often it is anyway) ... my father taught me that ima and cma have common roots.

    Let's put it out in the open. My Sendeng master, guru Jamaludin Shahadan claims that Daruma (Dharuma/ Bodhidharma) was from Palembang and made his way up to India and then China. So, in essence, what he taught was a primordial Nusantaran martial art that developed in three different areas in different ways.

    How's that for controversy? Will it be fun now? Sigh.

    Salam persilatan,
     
  9. Jebat

    Jebat Valued Member

    I like your mix Saiful, mine is just as complicated.
    And so is the one of most people, but most of them fool themselves
    they are of some purity of some kind which doesn't exist.

    Your Sendeng master: Is he the same Malay guy who spreaded the
    the silly story about Bruce Lee being killed by a Malay fighter?
    Another story in which the supremasy of the Malays is claimed....
    So now Bodhidharma was actually Malay? What a joke..

    I'm getting so tired of this stuff...
    Lying is apparently an acceptable thing in Malaysia...
    Never mind...
     
  10. Raden-Rahmat

    Raden-Rahmat Valued Member

    im lost

    Pekir...sorry im really not with it...im so busy at work ive lost the mindset i was in when writing that...maybe you should just write it off lol

    jebat...
    somethings seems true while not and vice-versa...the media is a good example of the greater lies of everyday...the war on iraq is just 1 issue that springs to mind...
    Silat however is not immune to any deficiencies but if your teacher is reliable, then trust him...especially if he has not shown any lack of trustworthiness. so leave him to his claims...if a malay man or silat man gave bruce some ilmu batin strike...then im sure ill just say ok....i never saw it...so i dont really care...

    you should look at the way you say things...Silat has Seni all the way...if it doesnt affect you, it is time you check on it...human interaction is a crucial thing in this world...so all you got to do is be nicer in your approach. i ust find arrogance on your side...forgive me if im wrong..n dont get me wrong...im so saint...but im definitely not arrogant and thought-less :topic:
     
  11. Saiful Azraq

    Saiful Azraq Valued Member

    Salam hormat Jebat,

    Hmmm... you have issues, me see...

    First off, guru Jamaludin was referring to an older document that he showed me, a book on Malayan history published by the Methodist Publishing House (now MPH) in 1920 which mentioned that Ch'an Buddhism was sourced originally in Nusantara, greatly influenced by the high culture spiritualism that existed here long before Islam came to our shores.

    I'd need to look at it again, but I do remember the book referencing this key figure as a man named Daruma, who was a monk who went to India to study Buddhism and later founded Ch'an Buddhism as a unique mix of spiritual traditions.

    The book never mentioned anything about him bringing along Nusantara martial arts, but guru Jamaludin only referenced the general opinion of the older masters in his area and those he spoke to who believed it.

    Secondly, there's only one account of a Melayu master ever even meeting the late Bruce Lee, and the only person to ever publicly make that statement, I believe, was Dicky Zulkarnain at the 1987 World Silat Championships. I quote from an earlier post http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=970881&postcount=36:

    Since I wrote that, I HAVE met an eyewitness who was present (I shall not name him), but he claims that nothing happened in that meeting. Bruce heard that Datuk Meor was on a stopover in Hong Kong and met him in the lounge to discuss martial arts.

    He apparently offered Datuk Meor to star in Game of Death, but was turned down when he was required to act a defeat to Bruce in the movie.

    So, as far as I know, it's been an interesting urban legend among Gayong pesilat ever since, and guru Jamaludin has never mentioned it to me in all the time I've known him, nor indicated that he knew anything about it. Most Malaysian pesilat don't even know this story and were quite surprised when it was published as an analytical piece in SENI BELADIRI magazine in the late 1990s.

    Though in defence of Malaysian pesilat, there are claims from all over the world where Bruce's life was supposedly done in. From the US Government, to jealous and angry Chinese kung fu masters, Shaolin monks and triads, to Datuk Meor Rahman, Dicky Zulkarnain and Trovador Ramos, all have their own claims to having defeated (or even killed) the great man. Malaysians aren't unique in that.

    As for me, the more claims that exist, the more it proves just how much this man has impacted our lives. I have interviewed Melayu silat masters who cite Bruce Lee as an inspiration to study their own culture's martial arts.

    I regret though that some people spread such stories (even if there is a speck of truth in it) to inflate their sense of importance.

    To Bruce Lee's family, friends and students, I don't know if you deign to read this, but I apologise if any of these urban myths gone wilde have hurt anyone amongst you. BLACK BELT once called Bruce a prophet of the martial arts in the West. If that wasn't blasphemous to me as a Muslim, I would be inclined to agree.

    Salam persilatan,
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2008
  12. Jebat

    Jebat Valued Member


    I don't like people who lie.
    And I don't like people who lie just to glorify their own kind and put down others'.
    A malay man or silat man gave bruce some ilmu batin strike?
    That is a lie fabricated to make it look like Malay Silat is the best in the world.
    Stop repeating other people's lies........
    Stop lying. Lying is wrong and hurtfull.....
    And why lie in the first place? Is it out of a lack of self confidence?
    There is a lot to be proud of, no need for lies.

    I'm not arrogant at all. I'm just one of the few people in Malaysia who are
    fighting for equality, against racism, against seperatism, against the spreading of lies that are meant to glorify one group and put down the others.

    But there will be judgement day for everybody, if you believe in those things....
     
  13. Jebat

    Jebat Valued Member

    My guru just told me that he is the reincarnation of Bruce Lee and that he was killed by a martial arts master Hokiwob of the alien race of the Gorks. The Gorks landed on earth and left grandmaster Bodigork (Bodiharma) on earth to educate the inferior humans. Bodigork travelled all over the world and is the foundation of all martial arts. Therefore the Silat I learn from my guru is the best in the universe and everybody else is inferior. Also the Gork race is the superior race of the universe and everybody else is inferior.
    Your Silat is just a watered down Silat from Bodigork.
    By the way, and we have the keris of Hang Tuah AND the underpants and fighting socks of Bruce Lee.
    You all just go and cry and wish you were us. And if you think of joining us, then forget it because you and your race are not worthy....

    It's all true because my guru told me so.....
    I don't think for myself cos my guru does all my thinking, I just agree with everything he says. After all, he is the reincarnation of Bruce....
     
  14. Kertas

    Kertas Valued Member

    I fought bruce lee, in my dream... Hey Jebat, are you lying? Or is being sarcastic as bad as lying? Hmmm..
     
  15. Raden-Rahmat

    Raden-Rahmat Valued Member

    jebat jebat jebat

    im not from malaysia and i dont defend tales. i support your thought. maafkan if i thought of u as arrogant but its what i saw...and in the virtual thing its hard to differentiate. but thousands apologies bro.
    i know what you saying and i always think of it as "remeh". even the statement Hang Tuah used "takkan melayu..blah blah"...was voiced during resistance but it now is used by ppl with political idealogies and the feeling of superiority.....why do the malays of malaysia feel this way??? i know they have this status thing especially when history actually comes from indon. malaysia is a more recent development due to the balfour declaration...but hey...do you stink like hang tuah's underpants too???or his ketiak???
     
  16. Raden-Rahmat

    Raden-Rahmat Valued Member

    hmmm budak silat (pendekar kecil)

    hey...ur son really looks the part...lets hope he carries the ettiquette and not only the physical aspects...may the art be him....lol

    To Gajah
     
  17. Jebat

    Jebat Valued Member

    lol.....
    No we haven't found Tuah's undergarment yet.
    By the way, Hang Tuah was a Chinese imperial guard, body-guarding a Chinese princess in Melaka.
    Something else, did you know there is a holy giant teapot in Malaysia?
    No joke.....
    Well, holy it is not of course, but there are some people who think it is...
     
  18. Kertas

    Kertas Valued Member

    hey.. why is the teapot regarded holy?
     
  19. Raden-Rahmat

    Raden-Rahmat Valued Member

    its in the tea...not the pot

    since you put it that way...jebat id say we keep this thread for discussing any unsuals and tales within silat...maybe we can de-myth things a bit

    but keep the tea holy...theres a secret in it...
     

Share This Page