Hi Newbie question

All of the above. Why is the picture vague, inprecise or undecided when you gathered all that useful precise information from it. It is describing process that is not vague. You seemed to understand clearly rather than vaguely what it described. Let's call it cooking

 

FQ - I wanted to say that it isn't about how the universe is here, but why, and how we should live now we are here. Other than that, all I can say is that I wholeheartedly disagree with your conclusions. I would go as far as to say that I think you are on the wrong side. We could argue about each and every point indefinitely but I don't have the time and Sandus has asked us not to discuss it here.

 

If yoda has gone to the dark side then we're all in deep doo doo!

 

One of the greatest, most diffuclt seeming things that the ego can do, is to let go of the feeling that there must be some reason why we are here.

There is, but it is simply to be you. No God is needed to tell you how to do that, nor does any.

That is for us to decide. We are the ones who have to live our lives, here. Not God.

You know, the Bible isn't about God, it's about us.

I don't disagree with yours. I'm not interested in binary polar positioning - that's how we became trapped in the false ego in the first place; by defining ourselves by what we are not. I am just your shadow, Joanna... Everything I say is just the other half of the concepts you believe in.

Truth means nothing to me - something I think you've had a lot of difficulty getting in my thinking - it doesn't matter one jot to me whether ny ideas are "true" or not - that's just another "game" that we play within our binary prison. True/false = artificial depth.

All that matters for me is if ideas are "active" - if they expand awareness and possibility wider. No Kerubim guards the way of my thought, turning me back, lowly human, from ideas that I may not consider... And in the end, we ourselves set up the Kerubim at the Gates; not God. Just like we have to dare to walk past them, guardians of the other world... so terrifying... and yet, their secret is open and easy.

It's all in our words, Joanna. Widen awareness of our words. "Other side" means trapped in binary artificial reality. Defining yourself, literally, by what you aren't. Without what you percieve as the sinners and unbelievers, your identity would collapse and have no meaning. We define ourselves in opposition to others. Why do you think the Yin/Yang spins out of Tao? It doesn't represent Tao, it represents how we made the world from binary ideology...

Capitalists call me a communist, communists call me a capitalist, Pagans call me a Christian, Christians call me a Satanist... their awareness has been "set up" to divide - like the Red Sea - Us from Them... Us and them... Simply to give some sense of reality to the ego that we know does not exist.

But letting go of the kennel of the ego doesn't actualy kill it. It's virtually immortal anyway, lol, at least within our lifetime. We choose how to define it - by what it is, or by what it isn't... or even to let it be undefined.

Well, he can move it to philosophy or religion, and we can discuss it there. If you don't have the time, you don't have the time. I am not here to affect you - I can't do that; you have all the power.

 

Er, no.

 

And here's US bozos thinking it was a profound insight in to the ephemeral nature of conceived reality, drawing on Buddha's insight in to the artificiality of constructed percpetions, specifically highlighting our dependence on binary conceptuality. When really it was just "Go listen to your hand...."

Gee, I wonder what Buddhists with nohands make of that koan?

I guess, it could be - go listen to your hand... but then that still doesn't mean you grasp the implication.

In fact, it's perfectly easy to put in to words the meaning of this koan - and many people have. As ever, it's understanding the implication that matters - how deep you, personally can see the implications extend. Like a little crack in a paneof glass, this one koan could expand to crack five thousand years of pan-global ideological slavery. If you see what it actually means.

Koans aren't built on the premise that ideas can't be exlained in words - they're built on the premise that understanding which you yourself have to gain goes far deeper than understanding just given.

 

Here's another one, pertaining to how binary ideology relates to what I just said to JK, regarding positioning.


One day a monk goes for a walk and he sees his master on the other side of the river.
"How do I get over there?" shouts the monk.
The master thinks for a moment then shouts back: 'But you already ARE over there."

 

er, no what?

 

Forgive me for not baby stepping you through the answer. I had assumed that you would be able to progress from there by actually doing it rather than dismissing it outright rather than going back to the explanation that I already said was incorrect.

There is nothing binary about the answer. It is more about what we think of as sound and, specifically, the absence of sound where there is substance. Sound gives us evidence of existence, but what about the things we cannot hear? Is there emptiness?

I don't have any time to explain further, and as far as I'm concerned this was dropped days ago, so I have no intention of addressing it again. Good to see you're catching up though.

 

I see you are still intent on having a debate about God here FQ. I won't rise to the bait. I'll choose my words carefully.

What makes me sad is that you do not understand that the self is the least important thing. The transient is less important than the timeless. The individual is less important than the whole. One's own wants are of secondary importance to the greater good.

This is the very spirit of genuine altruism - genuine benevolence - genuine goodness. It is absolutely real - don't believe the nihilists, the fatalists and the relativists. The last war would never have been won if every man, woman or child had thought only of themselves (not by the right side, anyway).

Further, it is vital to understand that we can take no credit for our virtues or abilities - everything we are that is good is a gift. We also have the gift of free will though - we can choose to put our own desire and gratification first - to silence the voice inside us that knows the difference between right and wrong. We can get lost in "us" and think only of the here and the now. We can sin.

Don't let your pride consume you - it never ends well.

 

Ah, well... you must work it out, space hopper....

 

I do indeed forgive you. Remember when you spoke about giants unknown?

It might be worth considering whether you were ever right in the first place - that might affect how you see the situation now.

Well, that would be a fundamental misunderstanding of Mahayana Buddhist thought, and therefore wouldn't be the solution - but, you know, if it's working for you, why explore other possibilities?

I am catching up. Of course you mean that as a reference to me being banned. I banned me, actually - I could have easily said something placating to you - but I chose not to, as a demonstration to Jk that we have all the power over our actions, and even when people think they have power over us, it is an illusion.

 

This is the reason that I think a belief in God can be a good thing. It can be a first step in in breaking down the idea that "I" am important. The next step is realising that there is no "I". If there is no I, how can "I" have needs or desires to be put above those of "others". That is benevolence.

 

I don't think it is incorrect. I think it is spot on.

 

Because it is incomplete and because there are plenty of people out there who will say "what you mean I've got cooking bowls of rice flowing through my Heart meridian?"

 

I think then maybe you are asking too much 'completeness' from a single word or image.

If I must have a point then it must be that " a picture speaks a thousand words". The metaphorical thousand rather than the literal - and you proved that with your initial reply.

Thanks!

 

Easy JK - lots of people enjoy discussing God, or ideas like this - it's not "baiting" you - you're not my victim. I can speak, and you can ignore - you have all the power.

You know, why make the implication that somehow I have power over you, to make you come tome?

No need - I can take it, no sweat - I've been called things that I should think have never even entered your mind - but still not been offended. Don't you get it yet? I WANT you to push me - take me to the limit - I use the intelligence of other people to force me to think clearer, think better, push the limits... I seek out such people, TO challenge me. Maybe I am evil - maybe you can show me that.

Well, don't be sad - sad means self importance - ironically. It means you feel morally superior to me, as if my life is harder because I'm not like you.

Importance is an illusion, really - and your idea really stems from Christian mis-representation of Christ's thought, making humans in to "bad" things... hence "self" is of no importance.

Copmpare and contrast with Sidhartha's thought - that self has no existence... no importance... versus no existence... One of those is a moral judgment, based on tickling the ego by making it feel worthless. It isn't that the self has no existence as such.

Actually, JK, I understand your philosophy deeply - so I should, I've spent along time studying it, and I'm also really smart - ha ha! Evil, but smart - like a James Bond villain, but better looking. And poorer. And I don'thave a secret base in an abandoned volcano. Or a cat.

It doesn't make me sad that feel you're of no importance - I'm over my slavery to compassion. We choose how to feel. We all have the power. I have the power...do, do -do do...

Really? Is there a list somewhere where our artificial concepts are graded?

What you could ask yourself, if you wanted - you have all the power - is why you choose to "judge" those things in an order of importance. Is a flower of less worth than an elephant?

Yeah? That's what Mao used to say too. In fact, that's what every dictator says.

You know why, right? Because if people actually worked outthat they have the power and authority over their world, people would become free - truly free; from suffering, from illusion.

Anyway, who says the greater good is what matters? The They? Those who despise individuality, thinking for ourselves, being our own moral compass - all things which you have spoken of aspathways to evil. Whose interestis it, do you think, for us to subsume our identity, our birthright of being empowered individuals?

My God - do you actually think I'm evil because choosing to think for myself might affect the safety of the herd?

I tell you, you are just as important as anyone else, worth just as much as me, or two of me, or the whole human race. I don't sacrifice anyone, personally, for the greater good.

JK, each and ever person has the power. I know you are a good person - but if you really, really care about people, then I tell you, there isno need for a greater good - each individual is completely responsible for their own lives - they have the power. If you want to help them, empower them - learn it and pass it on - they have the power. The "greater good" con is actually - mirror mirror - just a trick to steal away the one thing that actualy does ease suffering - empowering people with the knowledge that they have ALL the power, and no one does anything to them.

What you have to ask is, why did you, personally, choose to believe that? Does it empower you, or validate how you feel about yourself? Be free, JK - you are not of less worth than others. You are just important as anyone.

It's the exact opposite - the very spirit of self loathing, self pity, and self importance. Stealing empowerment from people is not altruism.

You see, JK, if EVERYONE is less important than the group, then NO ONE is empowered. But, you can't dis-empower them by your message - you can't do anything to them, either help them or hinder them - they have ALL the power. So at the very last, all that you've said is even meanigless - you give them nothing. All these things that you think do are really just about how your ego feels. It was, always ALL about you - nothing, whatsoever, about them.

That's not saying you're bad or anything - we all go through that. I was a Marxist once -I sounded just like you, ha ha... the greater good... my God - look what the Communists did, for the greater good...

Don't be afraid of no-thing, Joanna. Only the mirror world makes us think that it is the end. It's the beginning.

Why stop with not believing them? Why not keep going, eliminate belief after belief... until there are no beliefs?

That's a desperate manipualtion. People fight because they think it is important not to suffer. Do you think sacrificing your own life is altruistic? Mirror, mirror... Only those who don't care, who have no agenda at all, can ever truly help anyone.

The last war, like all wars, and all times, and all events, was made up of the perfect journeys of each being that took part in them. We don't get to say what events we will be using as a means to our journey towards total freedom. Like the guy being tortured that I mentioned, we only get to be free in how we feel.

Why? Are we so vile that nothign good can be from us? Are we so worthless that even the very excellent aspects of our natrure must be ascribed to other sources? You are good, JK, because that is the bent of your character. You are brave, smart, decent, because of who you are - you had all the power, and you are completely responsible for who you are. Even the voice that guides you is you.

Beware! Free will extends only as far as our awareness encompasses. Widen awareness, and freedom widens. Limit it, and freedom limits.

Joanna, that is all people do anyway, religious or otherwise. Even to feel "righteous" is a gratification of ego. Ego doesn't care about right and wrong like that, it cares about gratifying core issues.

That voice is your voice, JK - that's your true voice -the decent personthat you chose to be. You had the power, and you chose that. ]

In other words "Divert attention from where the answers really are - here, in us... and away from where the answers are most relevant - here and now. Joanna, that's your ego, terrified of looking at the truth, telling you that.

Only if we're notimpeccable in word and deed. There are no sins, except actions that are no impeccable - meaning, actions authored by self importance.

Mirror, mirror... I'm cold as an arctic wind, JK - you haven't even met my true personality... I have no honour. No thing.

 

Can you please stop saying this? It's resulted in that awful 80s song of that name by the sickly sweet duo Dollar going around endlessly in my head. Although actually it is probably quite appropriate as Dollar where presented as a couple, deeply in love but it later emerged that they hated each other and it was all an illusion.

 

No, I am not asking for anything. If the character for Qi can have so many meanings then it is not clearly defined, it is vague. I like this about it and like FQ think it is probably deliberately so.
I have this fanciful notion that when the character was first invented some bloke said to another bloke "so how are we gonna write one character to describe the underlying, binding principle behind everything. The very stuff from which everything is made and which is inherent in every thing and event in all creation. That which is, if you like, the rough fabric of the physical universe?" Smiling dumbly, the other bloke says "sorry mate what was that I was miles away just doodling, look I've drawn a bowl of rice cooking over a fire". First bloke says, "that'll do, I'm starving, let's eat."

 

Really? I always preseumed at least he was gay... oh well.

The thing about mirror, mirror, is once its grokked, and someone askes, well how did everything get twisted back on itself - well, because we were captured, looking at our own reflection in the mirror.. is the answer. "Alice through the looking glass...." from now on...