here is some nice experimentation

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by tpyeon, Nov 18, 2007.

  1. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    I see. I come from an old fashioned home, where gay meant happy and 'blow me' meant "what a surprise!"
  2. Shadowdh

    Shadowdh Seeker of Knowledge

    Thought that was "blow me down"?
  3. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    ... and I thought it was "bowl me over with a dill-pickle" ... bowl being an anagram of blow an all ... or thinking of anagrams ... "wobl me jiggers" ... wot a surprise?
  4. tpyeon

    tpyeon Valued Member


    ahh, good to see this has become a proper MAP thread now there is some innuendo going on!

    For all the chatter that we've had i'd like to point out:

    it didn't turn into a big slanging match

    no one has come up with a better method of investigation than the scientific/clinical trials ideals. (no arguements about unfair political uses please)

    the majority of evidence that qi/qi gong has going for it is ancedotal

    the ancedotal evidence in the uk seems to be limited to a general feeling of health

    the ancedotal evidence coming from the far east is extended to super natural powers

    although papers do exist, there seems to be criticism levelled at them for inadequate methodologies. (this is not a dig, any science paper is open to skepticism, and it's up to the people who did it to convince you otherwise)

    thanks to everybody for a really great thread!

    i know that taoquan has no interest in further investigation over why qi/qi gong is any more benefical than exercise omitting the qi culture/methods. but does anyone else have any ideas?

    seems funny that such a potentially powerful tool has such little proof. if i really believed that i had access to a power within in me that had benefits that were way in excess of conventional exercise medicine/exercise, i'd really want to convince people and spread the good word.

    it also strikes me as funny about how anyone can do qigong/qi stuff, yet it tends to be only the masters in china/etc that can do the supernatural stuff. how come so few claims over here?
  5. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    No, that means... oh, never mind...
  6. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Then it might be worth your time to consider the part played in all of this by the power of belief itself.
  7. tpyeon

    tpyeon Valued Member

    i'm sorry fire quan, could you make yourself a bit clearer?
  8. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    We're back to the placebo affect again which we all agree can be very powerful.

    The Bear.
  9. tpyeon

    tpyeon Valued Member

    and the placebo effect is exactly why we need so proper investigation into this whole qi/qi gong business.

    with training, if it works you don't keep getting your root broken or keep getting smacked in the face.

    with qigong and qi stuff, if it works you feel better?

    huge margine for belief/placebo issues
  10. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    Recognition of the placebo effect wouldn't in any way prove the existence of qi or jinglou (qi meridians) though. It could all still be about the brain, nervous system and hormonal systems.
  11. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    No but if you tested in such a way to discount the placebo effect you would have to say there is something worth investigating further. Agree?

    The Bear.
  12. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Here is the dream test I would design.

    1000 patients treated for similar condition (eg heart surgery)

    group 1 : 250 - no formal excercise regime
    group 2 : 250 - Standard Western Exercise regime
    group 3 : 250 - Qigong Regime
    group 4 : 250 - Fake Qigong Regime (they are told it is Qigong, but it is made up nonsense)

    If the genuine Qigong still has significant improvements over all the others then I would be inclined to look at it in a new light.
    The studies I have seen usually only have group 1 and group3 which of course you are going to see a difference.

    The Bear.
  13. tpyeon

    tpyeon Valued Member

    yeah, sounds good.

    could we also add that participants must have had no prior qi gong exercise experience.
  14. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Yes of course and that the doctors reviewing them don't know which post op treatment they are receiving. Also the groups do not mix with the others.

    The Bear.
  15. tpyeon

    tpyeon Valued Member

    so would any qi adovocates have a problem with that? what conclusions would we be able to draw from this trial?
  16. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    As a Mock out come to PBs dream test:
    With possible outcomes in bold (I just figured personally this is what I see in most studies is Authentic Qigong seems to be on par or lower than placebo, and then to pad the western a bit) I am curious if you have standard Qigong falling within the same range as placebo/fake Qigong and western exercise (with western eeking it out a bit) does this Disprove Qigong?

    Or does it simply make it just as effective (more on an average) as western and fake? The other problem is even in the Fake Qigong group, you cannot stop them from doing physical exercise which would skew results b/c any exercise is thought as beneficial.

    The other thing is this study could not prove how Qigong works. Is it just due to physical exercise? Or is it due to the visualizations? or both? Would the fake group do visualizations? How about the western exercise group?

    The one other thing I would add is that Medical Qigong is not necessarily practiced like everyone thinks. One posture/stance/qigong visualization is not used for everyone. It is similar to Phyiscal therapy, if someone hurts their arm it depends on the muscle damaged, other parts of the body and muscles you need to isolate or work on depending on the injury. In other words, in PT they don't say you have an arm injury do this ONE exercise for the arm.

    Same with qigong, per different conditions and symptoms Qigong Regimes are different. True to Chinese medicine theory, no individual is the same, so you might alter the physical exercise or the visualization exercise. You may alter the frequency of doing the qigong, (if particularly taoist) the time of day, number of days etc.

    Some say this is an excuse, but if you want to stick to true Qigong theory these all have to be taken into account. If you want to TRULY test Qigong, you have to test Qigong, not a watered down version. I assume that in these tests you wouldn't alter any good western exercise just to make it "easier" for an individual, then the same could not be done for Qigong.

    Though I am curious, what do you all think if Qigong does fall within the same areas as everything else does this prove or disprove qigong? I mean at the very least it is AS effective as western and placebo. I for one never claimed it was better (other than for patients that need the low impact of it).
  17. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Belief is a very powerful thing, and one of its defining characteristics is that it can't really be tested scientifically as such.

    I'm talking about something much more than the placebo effect - the belief experience, a phenomenon whereby we experience our beliefs as true; often through a process of ignoring everythign that doesn't conform to them, but also structurally - building a world view around our beliefs that helps form our opinions in the first place.

    People might use the word "qi" and they might, for the sake of argument, do something interesting - whther a fa li or healing more rapidly than normal - but that doesn't mean that it is qi. Qi, like all the things we believe in, is a word. But they might use the word qi,a nd interestingly, the belief in qi might allow them to do somethign which without the belief they wouldn't achieve. That's much more than a placebo effect, it's a conduit for intention.

    Belief is a powerful thing - ideas like freedom have the power to change nations.
  18. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    Great point. Once you have belief you have that conduit for intention which then can open many other doors.
  19. tpyeon

    tpyeon Valued Member

    yes. ideas, belief, intention, our reliance on language. all interesting and all worthy topics to talk about.

    many ideas can facillitate good results. noone on this thread would argue this. if people were able to say "i have this method of thinking/training, it helps me feel better about myself, it allows me to tackle a probably indirectly which otherwise i might not be able to do" fine. but we aren't talking about that.

    i fail to see the direct application to the testing of qi in this case.

    oh, taoquan, your response to PB post was great. i'm giving it some thought and will post something later!
  20. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    No but that isn't the purpose. The purpose is to discover if there is a measurable health benefit to the Qigong regime.

    Correct but the averaging effect of the numbers of participants should cope with this.

    Don't mind, but the visualisation stuff could be a study on it's own.

    Which is why we have people with similar illnesses are to be compared.

    This doesn't affect the outcome because it's the overall effect we are measuring not the practice.

    Don't mind who does the Qigong. The best you can find in the world.

    No it just proves that as a medical treatment, It isn't worth pursuing since we already have an as effective treatment.

    The Bear.

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