here is some nice experimentation

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by tpyeon, Nov 18, 2007.

  1. unfetteredmind

    unfetteredmind Valued Member

    Well that depends on what kind of medicine you are talking about. I'd be interested in the research behind this thinking.
     
  2. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Just like you provided a quite when I asked for it right? :p

    In any case, no citation is needed, your chatter speaks volumes to anyone thats listening.

    "ughhhh.... I cant think for myself... need validation from others... I don't like this loneliness... these changes scare me... bahhhh(thats supposed to be the noise a sheep makes, you know, that animal that likes to roam in herds, very unlike a polar bear)" :D

    Like I say bear, if you want to "know", you need to "experience". Its not something you can get out of a book, no matter how much you'd like to think so.

    Here is another little quote to wind you up, "our knowledge is ignorance, but ignorance is not knowledge" - Lao Tzu
     
  3. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Uhuh, perhaps we should give up writing and return to living in the woods with the spirits and the pixies.

    The Bear.
     
  4. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    why? anything that is untested, is unpredictable from massage to chemotherapy.

    The Bear.
     
  5. unfetteredmind

    unfetteredmind Valued Member

    Regarding acupuncture, this is just one of the proposed reasons for it's effect even from the scientific community. Counter-irritation is another commonly mentioned effect. But for me, I am more interested in the effects of the therapeutic encounter than the mechanism. If someone gets better from having acupuncture and then no longer requires riskier interventions I think this is a positive outcome, placebo effect or not. And whatever you may think, there is good evidence that in certain situations acupuncture has significantly greater therapeutic effect than placebo. The trouble is that the goalposts are just moved when these studies are done and it becomes a debate about the mechanism for that effect.
     
  6. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Sounds like a good idea, but you'll have to count me out! Let me know how it goes though, if you can find your way to a PC and remember how to write/type.
    :D
     
  7. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    The problem is that with the placebo effect there is no way of predicting an outcome. So what works for one doesn't work for another. Whereas if you find a treatment that works for 99.99% of the people tested surely that is better?

    The Bear.
     
  8. unfetteredmind

    unfetteredmind Valued Member

    Unpredictable yes, but you stated a likely outcome. That is a prediction. The validity of which, by your own standards, needs to be tested before we assume it's truth.
     
  9. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Just as a question, if you ever develop cancer will you use Qigong to treat it instead of western medicine?

    The Bear.
     
  10. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Which is exactly what I have been asking for!!!!!

    The Bear.
     
  11. unfetteredmind

    unfetteredmind Valued Member

    This is true of all medicine. No doctor can guarantee that a treatment will work for everyone. But consider an example of someone facing major surgery with all it's inherent risks. If they can have a far less risky and costly treatment first how much does it matter how predictable the outcome is? If they don't get better they can just go on and have the surgery. However, placebo effect alone would mean that not everyone would need to be exposed to higher risk intervention.

    Well that would be better but how many treatments work for 99.99% of patients?
     
  12. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Hmmm... I wonder where your heading with this... :confused:

    You said "You are denegrading the entire scientific system because you think that your life experience is more valuable." But, unfortunately, that is merely your opinion and not mine, though it is your reality if you want it to be. ;)

    Put it this way, just cause I think that experiential knowledge trumps intellectual knowledge, does not mean that intellectual knowledge is completely useless. One can use intellectual knowledge to gain experiential knowledge to a certain degree, but unfortunately most think, and I suspect you to do so, that intellectual knowledge is the be all and end all.

    I will answer your question with another. If you had cancer (and I hope you never do) would you prefer to be treated by (A) doctor that has been very well educated in all the best institution, but has no clinical experience or (B) a doctor that has virtually no formal education, but tons of clinical experience?
     
  13. unfetteredmind

    unfetteredmind Valued Member

    I know this question wasn't asked of me but I'm going to answer it :) I would possibly have surgery but would avoid radiotherapy and chemotherapy at all costs. There are a fair number of oncologists around who share this opinion.
     
  14. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Penicillin for one. the dangerous allergy only affect 1-5 people per 10000.
    Asprin, paracetamol, ibuprofen, diamorphine.
    I could actually go on for some time on drugs before I ever got on to procedures.
    I'm not saying qigong doesn't work just please go do double blind trials like everyone else and then you can get it accepted in the west.

    The Bear.
     
  15. unfetteredmind

    unfetteredmind Valued Member

    It seems a little inconsistent then to ask me why I wanted to see that research.
     
  16. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    I would certainly read all the documentation I could find before agreeing to anything. I wouldn't leave it to experience to decide with therapy I take.

    The Bear.
     
  17. unfetteredmind

    unfetteredmind Valued Member

    Really?!! Penicillin is 99.99% effective? It cures everyone to whom it is prescribed except for those with an allergy to it? I'm left wondering why anyone bothered inventing all those other antibiotics.
     
  18. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Why I prefer tested medicine, oh sorry misunderstood.

    I was trained as a scientist. It is pretty much ingrained that I don't trust anything that is untested.
    It comes from research in to a condition my son was suffering from. The medicine my doctor prescribed didn't work and I went looking for an alternative. Pediatric drug research is an area sadly lacking I discovered.
    I found lots of papers at the time but I don't have them to hand. Ironically I went to a medical herbalist and they give my son medicine that appeared to work even though I expected it to be a waste of money. I don't know if it was the medicine or that the condition healed up on it's own but I still hold that all state funded treatments should be rigorously tested. If some one wants to pay for it themselves like I did then good luck to them.

    The Bear.
     
  19. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Eh, because the bugs learn to adapt and different drugs work on different bugs. It's not a static system it's a perpetual war of drugs versus evolution.


    The Bear.
     
  20. unfetteredmind

    unfetteredmind Valued Member

    So penicillin doesn't work on all those bacteria that are resistant to it. So not 99.99% effective after all.
     

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