here is some nice experimentation

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by tpyeon, Nov 18, 2007.

  1. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    You are kidding right? All surgical techniques are constantly monitored. Even if they are already proven effective. Their effectiveness is compared against other prcedures and even other surgeons to continually search for the best methods and weed out the sloppy practioners. Did you not know this?

    The Bear.
  2. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

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    The Bear.
  3. unfetteredmind

    unfetteredmind Valued Member

    I'm not so sure that this is a "very good article". I have no interest in defending Homeopathy but a couple of things jumped out at me from this. Sure, the basic discussion about the importance of trials and certain principles is sound but what about
    "Enough is enough. Evidence-based medicine is beautiful, elegant, clever and, most of all, important. It is how we know what will kill or cure you." So Penicillin is pretty well researched. If I pick someone randomly off the street will it kill or cure them? What about all those deaths from properly prescribed and taken medicines?
    Also this:
    "With alternative therapists, when you point out a problem with the evidence, people don’t engage with you about it, or read and reference your work. They get into a huff. They refuse to answer calls or email queries. They wave their hands and mutter sciencey words such as “quantum” and “nano”. They accuse you of being a paid plant from some big pharma conspiracy. They threaten to sue you. They shout, “What about thalidomide, science boy?”, they cry, they call you names, they hold lectures at their trade fairs about how you are a dangerous doctor, they contact and harass your employer, they try to dig up dirt from your personal life, or they actually threaten you with violence"
    Now that is one hell of a generalisation!!! Really, imagine if I went around saying doctors are murderers just because some doctors are. This is a disgraceful, unfounded slur on practitioners of every system of medicine that is not considered mainstream in this country. Evidence-based my ****!
  4. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    “What about thalidomide, science boy?”, they cry

    Generalisation eh?

    The Bear.
  5. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Just for everyone's info-Hydrick wasn't just a psychic fraud,he was a MA fraud also.Info in Inside KF mag, 1988.Disremember which issue.
  6. unfetteredmind

    unfetteredmind Valued Member

    Kidding? No. I did not say that surgical techniques are not assessed. I am saying that there is not one gold-standard approach to evaluating all medical practice. The evidence for the benefit of tonsillectomy is much weaker than for the benefits of acupuncture for knee pain, but alternative medicine isn't evidence-based and allopathic medicine is?
    Well I know that that is what people would like to think before they have an operation. I also know it took the best part of fifteen years and a whistleblower to uncover the heart surgery scandal at bristol royal infirmary.
  7. paradigm

    paradigm New Member

    Not a study, personal experience

    I will share this with the group. My wife was rear ended 5 years ago. It didn't seem so bad, but she did have a back ache. In the days that followed, her back became worse until, finally, a week later she went to see the doctor. He prescribed some pain meds and physical rehab and told her it should clear up in six weeks. We did everything we were told, but it continued to worsen until she could barely move. We then went to an orthopedist who, after examining her told her that she had a couple of engourged disc and that we could do one of 3 things; Fuse her spine, start on pain meds permanently or start chiropractic/massage care. After talking to several folks who had the fusing procedure, we found it seemed to create as many problems as it solved. We really didn't want to start down the pain med road (about the time oxycoton was popular) so we opted for chiropractic/massage care. It worked marginally, but still left her with problems bad enough that she could not work.

    I'm not sure how, but we read about Tai Chi and found a class at our local community center. At first, we were VERY skeptical, but as we continued to practice, she became better and better. We started over 3 years ago and today, she is working again and has her life back. I'm not sure if it was "chi" or the placebo effect or something else, but it worked. I see that some suggest you can accomplish the same results with "aoerobics" or some more conventional exercise. I am here to tell you that she COULD NOT do any of these (we tried), but she could do these gentle movements. To skoff at the efficacy of this method is doing no one any favors. If you are sincere and diligent, it can work wonders.

    Take from this what you will, but the other people in our group use Tai Chi to control a wide range of maladies. We have a lady with fibromyalgia, a quadroplegic, a person with hyper-tension and a lady with chronic migraine problems. We've all tried conventional western medicine to control these problems, but found Tai Chi to be better and more gentle.

    I know this group is primarily here to discuss the martial aspect of Tai Chi (chaun), but there's a reason why it's gaining popularity and it's not because of martial side of it. I agree that it is important to understand the history of this art (it's why I read this forum), but to say it's useless without the martial component is not doing anyone any favors. Frankly, I wouldn't know or care about the martial aspect of this art if we hadn't started doing it for health. If you REALLY think the art is dying because it is not taught martially, I ask you to think about that for a minute. It is gaining popularity because of the health benefit. Perhaps, with more people participating, you would could look at it as more potential candidates for the martial study of it. The impression I get from many (not all) on this forum is, "If you do it for health only, you're taking something away from the purity of the art, and shouldn't do it at all". At the same time, there seem to be many charlatans out there promising miracles from this.

    I do not know why it works, but it does. I wonder. I read. I speculate. I see a lot of people who seem to use it to there own ends and, in my opinion, turn a lot of people off on it because of their far-fetched opinions on the mystical side of it. I think it is a simple thing. You do it, you feel better. That's all.

  8. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Got a citation for that statement?

    Yes but it was uncovered and action taken.

    The Bear.
  9. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    P - L - A - C - E - B - O.

    and it can be a bloody powerful effect.

    The Bear.
  10. unfetteredmind

    unfetteredmind Valued Member

    Oh so we should ignore the fact those people die? Or maybe their deaths don't constitute evidence.
    I don't see how you think pointing this out is a generalisation.
  11. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    What makes you say there is resistance to undergo clinical trials? Like I said, if its used in hospitals abroad it must be for good reason, just cause we don't have access to such data does not mean it does not exist. If I could do a search in some Chinese dialect I would, but I cant.

    For me, the evidence, that I have expirienced first hand means a lot more to than any clinical trial, and I don't really care what anyone else believes, but I think you figured that out already. Of course I cant expect you to take my word for it, but, well you already know the answer to this one. :)
  12. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    You used one of the arguements you later quoted and said it was a generalisation. It was very amusing.

    Nope but it's far far less probable you will die from tested medicine than untested, true?

    The Bear.
  13. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Well you have answered your own question then, it is a matter of belief to you and no amount of evidence will sway you either way.

    Fair Enough, you can only debate with someone who operates in terms of reason.

    The Bear.
  14. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    I have some P-L-A-C-E-B-O tm pills if anyone's interested, just 10 dollar.
  15. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    So it's you sending me all those viagra spam mails. Please stop it I am starting to get performance anxiety.

    The Bear.
  16. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    Placebo is a large part of healing (no matter what kind) this doesn't discount eastern medicine, just like it doesn't discount western medicine. If western medicine cannot be disuaded with placebo effects why should alternative therapies?

    Also, I have seen acupuncture physically realign the body structure by inches (with the hips anterior/posteriorly tilted or raised right or left) within a 20 min session. The results were even checked by physical therapists, master body workers and nurses. All to their amazement it can be done, so in my mind that is one powerful placebo effect to physically change body structure in a matter of minutes.

    I have cited plenty of good and pretty well respected articles for Qigong studies and acupuncture studies, do a search. Most never commented on them, except for CK. I have found studies where they have injected radioactive isotopes into proposed chinese meridian sites to find that the isotopes follow the exact pathways of the meridians. They would then inject it into random areas of the body with no effect.

    As for this:
    Show me a western modality that doesn't show the same thing for 95% of their cancer treatments.

    I am not sure what the current topic is b/c this has already once again degenarted into some mess of placebo, alternative therapies, Qi and science. Once again same wheels same mud.
  17. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Well, not really. I believe that knowledge gained through experience is much more relevant than knowledge gained through reading books and such. To me, your asking for evidence that is irrelevant, and my reply is that if you want reality, you need to experience things yourself, not read about them.

    I could write what a polar bear tastes like, but its not the same thing as eating one. If you were to read a book on survival in the frozen tundra, then head out there, you would most likely die real quick, but people live out there without any need for books, because they have experience. Besides, any study is always viewed/skewed from someones framework. If you can only digest predigested experiences, how can you make any judgment at all?

    I found this on Wiki of all places, does not mean much to me, but maybe it will to you:

    Links to some studies are at the bottom of the "Uses" section.
  18. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    What an absolute steaming pile of new age codswallop.
    You are denegrading the entire scientific system because you think that your life experience is more valuable. Wow talk about ego.

    The Bear.
  19. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    LOL.. your the one that thinks you can gain experience by reading about it.. now thats nonsense. But, I undersatnd, I guess its unnerving for you to think that some people can think for themselves. :Alien:
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2007
  20. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Provide citation please since I have only discussed knowledge and said nothing about experience.

    The Bear.
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2007

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