help with striping grips

Discussion in 'Judo' started by Tom bayley, Sep 22, 2016.

  1. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    I have recently taken up fighting with clothes on. (previously no gi).

    I am finding fighting with a gi both fascinating and frustrating. in particular the way that the opponent grips is totally different.

    I would be really grateful if anyone could give some advice / post some clips of good technique for grip striping.

    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    For lapel grips, I've had a lot of success with holding opponant's gripping arm sleeve with a cross grip, pulling their arm away and down as I slap the hand down and pull my body back against the thumb.

    I saw Jimmy Pedro demo it and it worked a treat within judo rules where you can't rely on your BJJ grip breaks due to the prohibition of a two handed grip (on the sleeve fabric) - or so I was told on my first day.

    I usually feed my arm inside and apply a same side lapel grip and bump their arm up and away with my elbow to their inside elbow, if I can't seem to break the grip, as this mitigates against their control in a similar way to an underhook in no-gi.

    I'm a newb in Judo but applying those and a mix of my BJJ gi awareness and clinch approach from thai and MMA is helping.

    Here is the Pedro clip.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76c269wWMvg"]Jimmy Pedro - Grip Break Power Play - BJJ Weekly #065 - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2016
  3. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    If your opponent's right hand grabs on your upper left lapel:

    method 1 (Striking push and Tearing):

    - Use your right fist to striking push at his right shoulder.
    - Step back your left foot.
    - Pull your left shoulder back as fast and as hard as you can.
    - Use your left hand to "tear" apart his lapel grip.

    Here is a clip for the "Striking push".

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2bpG817lN8&feature=youtu.be"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2bpG817lN8&feature=youtu.be[/ame]

    method 2 (Elbow-dropping)

    Drop your left elbow on top and over his lapel grip hand. Go through this as many times as you need until his fingers is completely caught inside your Judo Gi.

    method 3 (Arm-crossing)

    - Keep your left arm straight.
    - Move your left arm from your left to your right above his lapel grip as hard and as fast as you can, and put pressure on his fingers.

    method 4 ...
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2016
  4. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    re standing -
    Whilst stripping grips is important, its not the be all and end all, pummeling (just like nogi) for the centre position is just as important, as is using over and under hooks against grips, as is using non-dominate (i.e. outside grips) more effectively then them.

    Also a high stance, mutual grips and light attacking chains really helps your practice, trying to heavily grip fight people tends to make them throw you harder then they otherwise would.

    Re groundwork- its really just the cross grip from guard that is really major issue, so just open on the other side and avoid the choke.

    If your not disciplined with posting hands and posture it'll really become apparent in the Gi, its really important to not post past the sturnum unless its a double into the armpit/biceps.

    ps - judo people break the sturnum rule all the time, make sure all your counters are good ones!
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2016
  5. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I think part of what you are saying is: don't worry about grips if you can get better ones? If so, I very much agree! :)

    Also, twisting clothing can either make it impossible to hold onto, or wrap your opponent's fingers in order to take advantage of their inability (for a split second) to let go.
     
  6. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    This way of thinking may be a bit too conservative. If you don't let your opponent to have a good grip on you, he can't throw you. I prefer to spend 80% of my effort not to let my opponent to get grips on me.

    Just like the no-Gi wrestling, if you don't let your wrestling opponent to wrap his arms around your waist, get your neck, or get your leg/legs, he can't take you down. If you only allow your opponent to have the sleeve grip but don't allow him to have the lapel grip, he can't throw you.

    99% of the time,

    - You have one grip on your opponent's sleeve (or arm).
    - He also has one grip on your sleeve (or arm)
    - Your other free hand is fighting again his other free hand.
    - Both of you try to get that lapel grip before the other person get it.

    The moment that you get that lapel grip, the moment you move in and execute your throw.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2016
  7. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I agree that preventing someone from getting a grip in the first place is key. That is no different from preventing someone from striking you, to my mind. But once they do get a grip I find it is easier to move inside or outside (depending on the situation), and use footwork to use that to your advantage, rather than focus on just trying to strip their grip. I guess rule sets might change that.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2016
  8. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    The concern is if your opponent has monster grips, when he gets hold on you, it may be difficult (if not impossible) to break that grips. I'm not trying to brag about myself (at this point of my age, there is not much left to brag about). Since I started to play jacket wrestling on the mat, nobody could ever break my grips yet. One day someone said another person had great MA skill. My teacher said, "Just let John to get hold on him and see if the can break John's grip". My teacher always look down on other people. That was the only time that he made a positive comment on my grip strength.

    Last Monday I wrestled with a wrestler that I met in the park the first time. I used my left arm to control his right arm. I then let my right arm to play with his left arm. When I feel my right arm was in a dominate position, I moved in. All no-Gi wrestling will be like this. The Gi wrestling should not be any different. The concern that I have is if you (general YOU) are used to dance with your opponent when both of you have grips on each other, that kind of experience will be useless to transfer over no-gi or striking-allowed environment.

    Why does anyone want to develop certain skill that later on he may have to spend a lot of effort and time to break it when he moves into no-Gi or striking-allowed environment?
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2016
  9. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    IMO, this concept is extremely important.

    If your opponent's right hand can grab on your upper lapel, his right fist can punch on your face. If you can have that kind alert, you are no longer just training "sport".
     
  10. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Thanks for your comments and examples - and I really agree with the importance of awareness, movement and not letting them get the grip in the first place.

    for me the biggest difference is learning how the fact that the grip is on clothing (rather than direct on to my body) alters the mechanic of both the grip and the forces that are applied to break it. Often my efforts seem to pull or twist my own gi around, rather than apply force to the grip.

    any more examples of techniques that you like to use for grip striping would be gratefully received.
     
  11. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    In jacket wrestling, This clip shows the most "common" way to start a "grip fight" (I have used the same strategy to deal with no-jacket wrestler too).

    - You use your left hand to control on your opponent's right wrist.
    - You use your right hand to grab on his right lapel (he may get a grip on you at this moment too).
    - You use your left hand to grab on his sleeve (or arm).
    - You then step back your right leg, pull back your right shoulder, use your right hand to "tear" apart his grip at the same time.

    Now you have 1 sleeve (or arm) grip and your opponent has no grip. The "single arm grip fight" will start right here. You may notice that you have just created a good amount of distance between his left hand and your right hand. This will "bait' him to move toward you (require weight shifting).

    You start to

    - move in circle toward your left,
    - use your right arm to fight against your opponent's left arm.
    - try as hard as you can not to let him to get his left hand on you (just like to block an incoming punch).

    When your right arm can "deflect" his incoming left arm (block his punch), you move in.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFL0c1lvznc&feature=youtu.be"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFL0c1lvznc&feature=youtu.be[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2016
  12. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    I was thinking about this last night, I think your problem isnt totally answered by your question.

    "They keep gripping me, how do I prevent this, whilst entering" might be a better one

    As its (usually not always) initially the collar grip with their front hand which is the problem, you need to track this with you back hand, whilst using your front hand to get the collar grip on them.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2016
  13. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Sadly I agree with you, would that all my problems were answered by just one question.

    Thank-you for your suggestion - in fact I do this already, however one of the frustrations of shifting from no gi to gi is how easy it is to get a grip on cloth sleeve rather than on arm. I am guarding the collar grip but giving up a sleeve grip on the guarding arm. Which I then can't get rid off allowing the opponent to build to a dominant grip.

    Like I say, frustrating but fascinating at the same time. Great fun.
     
  14. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Well if you are pulling and twisting your own clothes rather than applying direct pressure to your opponent, that means you have space to work with. A really good grip is going to remove all the slack and not give you the space.

    So maybe you can look at this in two ways. You can struggle and end up removing the slack in your opponent's favor (sort of like the saying, you are given just enough slack in a rope to hang yourself). Alternatively, you can just go for removing all the slack and end up in a position in your favor.

    Because I'm not that good at grip fighting and when in a position where I am not using striking, I'll go for a two-on-one and establish elbow and shoulder control. Take a look at the two-on-one used by Mifune in the following clip of Kouchi Gari:

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weZLdeyWkzM"]Kyuzo Mifune - 087 - Ashi Waza - Ko Uchi Gari - YouTube[/ame]
     
  15. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    [ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8K2K2XN5KbI[/ame]


    Ive found this useful against the back hand sleave being gripped whilst we're battling collar grips.

    plus its xande, so its gonna be good!

     
  16. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    It takes me more than 10 years to switch from gi to no gi. I just don't see why you want to do the other way around. The more experience that you have in gi, the more time that you will need to break that gi habit when you switch to no-gi. So my question is, if you know no-gi is your goal then why do you even bother to spend time in gi?

    We all know that no gi is a subset of gi. Many gi throw that require "pulling" will be difficult to use in no-gi.

    When your opponent moves toward you and try to knock your head off, all your gi-depend throws will be useless. The only thing in your mind at that moment is how to warp his punching arm so you can turn that striking game into your favor wrestling game.

    I wrestled with a wrestler few days ago. He moved in quite low (hard to move in and use my back to touch his chest). After my left hand had controlled on his right arm, I was looking for a head lock, reverse head lock, under hook, or over hook. I wasn't looking for any lapel grip at all. I used my right arm seriously to deflect his left arm (as if he had a knife in his left hand) and prevented his left arm to get on my body (this kind of experience is useful in striking game).

    If he had gi, I would

    - get a lapel grip,
    - use stiff arm to push him back and slow down his forward momentum, and
    - execute my throw.

    Since my opponent had no gi, that strategy was totally useless. At that particular moment, I suddenly felt "Why should I spend so much of my training time to develop a gi strategy that I cannot use in no gi?"

    If your goal is to integrate striking and throwing, no-gi will be your path. If you just want to have fun in "sport", it will be different.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2016
  17. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Using the opponent's clothes against them and preventing your clothes from being used against yourself is only half of it. This thread may be about that half.

    However, using your clothes as a tool is the other half. A very important other half. I knew folks that could use their gi as a weapon against others.

    If you are learning with gi, learn to use your own gi as a weapon.
     
  18. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    IMO, the reason that some grappling art use gi (jacket) is for the following reasons:

    - The moment you can get a grip on your opponent, he can't keep moving away and tries to avoid wrestling. So gi (jacket) can force your opponent to wrestle and not just move around, or move back.
    - When you throw your opponent, you can pull your sleeve grip upward. This can prevent your opponent's head from hitting on the ground. So gi (jacket) can be used to protect your opponent from serious injury. Many people in modern time may have ignored this.

    Unfortunately, it also bring in some problems such as:

    - You can use "stiff arms" to hold your opponent away and wait for opportunity (the dancing problem).
    - You may depend too much of your gi (jacket) "pulling". When the gi (jacket) is not there, you have no "pulling" replacement.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2016
  19. Subitai

    Subitai Valued Member

     
  20. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Subitai thanks so much for posting these videos. Particularly thanks for the top video it had never occurred to me to use lions mouth this way against a gi grip. Mental block, I was thinking of it as a no gi technique that works through applying direct pressure to the joint. It did not occur to me that it could be used to create tension to peel the gi out from the grip.

    Thanks so much for sharing the second video. It is great to see how other Hung practitioners do things, particularly when. as the Indonesians say, it is "same same, but different". :)
     

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