Help me convince my friends to stop beleiving in chi

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by Thelistmaker, Oct 27, 2012.

  1. Thelistmaker

    Thelistmaker bats!

    why one earth do you believe I have my eyes closed?

    yes, is an integral part of scientific discovery

    separating out something from other things is how you know it exists as a thing on it's own.

    If you can't separate it from other things it is not an entity.


    and you think my goals are... what? proof in MA is called repeated testing against a resisting opponent in an appropriate environment.

    I appreciate debate but my answering your post was a courtesy. please read about the scientific method and perhaps some metaphysics 101 before posting again in this thread.
     
  2. Thelistmaker

    Thelistmaker bats!

    I disagree completely. I do not think much history or translation is relevant in this case. what is relevant are the claim made my the specific believer. they can easily be tested/ shown to be false without any doctorate level physiology ect.

    for example - one can point to the meta-analysis of the large number of sound studies conducted in this area.

    also you do not need a PHD to understand what energy is not. I an not the greatest but I have no problem understanding that if 'energy' is there it is necessarily -based on very fundamental laws of physics - detectable. it also does not take a phd to understand that memories are not 'energy that can be transferred to a rock.' you don't need a phd to figure out what sort of insanely complex pattern transmission and reading mechanisms would be required and notice their absence in all areas where they would be required.
     
  3. mattt

    mattt Valued Member


    Bro, I appreciate italics but really.. The thread will never reveal the answer because you cannot change a persons belief from finding facts that support your belief.

    If I'm wrong and you get an answer that works in changing your mates mind ill gladly eat humble pie, but it's never gonna happen.

    I'm just trying to help you out in the long run. Especially if you want to stay married or earn a good salary.
     
  4. embra

    embra Valued Member

    I think you mis-understand my post a tad.

    You do not need a Phd to know that western folk talking about 'chi' - is bunk -bio-pixie plasma fairy stories.

    To get into what folk popularly attribute to 'chi' - in terms of rational diagnosis, explanation and analysis - well oxygenated blood flow, slow rhythmic breathing, development of well co-ordinated bio-mechanics etc - then what I am saying (IMHO) is that this cannot be done with hocus-pocus science and that is best to go pretty deep into nuerology and asssociated physiology - and the science on these fronts is far from well-understood or conclusive - but it is a damm site better than hocus-pocus mumbo-jumbo.

    To get a grip on the context of CIMA (Chinese Internal MA) i.e how and why did it originate - and how has it been manipulated or jazzed-up; then some understanding of the traditions used to transmit the relevant story-telling
    is important. You can largely forget 'Chi' - Yin and yang most folk can get to grips with e.g.attack and defend as one; with some effort I can absorb the rudiments of Bagua theory - but it defeats me when it gets to the i-ching (book of changes). I don't pay a whole load of attention to this stuff, but I absorb aspects here and there, knowing that they are mere stories (lost in translation etc) and without scientific basis.
     
  5. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    Why does it matter to you what other people believe?

    Stop wasting your time worrying about the beliefs of others, and work on your own baggage.
     
  6. komuso

    komuso Valued Member

    Like the others have said...

    mate, I am a lecturer at a university, I do what you are trying to do - get people to think differently about things - on a professional basis.

    Here is the thing, you can't , at least not directly. Most of the time I am working as franticly as the proverbial one armed grave digger to basically trick people in to adopting a range of perspectives as opposed to their single one. In most cases it is impossible, in a small percentage of folks it is.

    If you want to live with other people and be happy this is a fact you will have to get used to, not everyone adopts the same model for reality that you do, irrespective of what you consider to be the evidence. A quick look at human history should be all it takes to convince you of this. There is REALLY no sense getting annoyed about it, and learning how to live with conflicting reality models can actually be quite intriguing and entertaining.

    paul
     
  7. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Seems to me you are only interested in debate if people agree with your ideas. Maybe you should be less confrontational (and rude and condescending) in general and you might even learn something. You missed my point by a mile.

    Lighten up.
     
  8. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Let him believe in Chi. People believe in God with absolutely no proof, so why bother?
     
  9. Dave76

    Dave76 Valued Member

    How are you so certain they are wrong? Has there been scientific studies debunking it? Antibiotics would have been a strange and mysterious healing to someone who had no knowledge of them. If you used some during the Inquisition you would have been burned as a witch, would that make them mystical or less scientific? I thought the scientific method was about being objective?
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2012
  10. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    scientific studies havent disproved chi - what they have is a MASSIVE body of evidence pointing towards other explanations for "chi" related phenomena.

    just because something isnt understood at the moment, it doesnt mean it wont be in the future.

    if people are using broad and outdated terms like "chi" for things that we now have specific terms and explanations for then they need to catch up as their knowledge will quickly become irrelevant as the rest of humanity achieves greater understanding with more specific terms.
     
  11. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    Try reading JUICE by Scott Meredith.If you practice the exercises in the book for a period of time you will have an idea of what chi is,that is provided you can get out of your head and into your body.Meredith has a PhD from MIT,worked at Microsoft as researcher for 25 years and is fully fluent in Classical Chinese and Japanese so he should fit your requirement of being educated.He has also practiced tai chi for more than forty years.

    Forget about ingraining memories into lanscapes and healing people as it seems the guy has about as much of an idea about chi as you have.Buy him a copy of the book as well.:D
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2012
  12. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Yes, but most of mine involve making new friends. Or sending them to cult reprogramming centers.

    If there's no way to prove or disprove something, it is irrelevant as a concept.

    Easily. You put the stuff that's real on your left. That's the stuff without chi. You put the stuff that's imaginary on your right. That's the chi stuff.

    Looking for the lightswitch on the roof will also lead to you not finding it.

    And, incidentally, if you're looking for a lightswitch it's often because it's dark, in which case closing your eyes makes little difference.

    Yes.

    It is about being objective, as well as about evidence. The evidence is the important bit. If someone can provide evidence of chi (and so far no one has managed to do this in a scientific study, nor in a repeatedable way) then it's worth considering as a genuine thing.

    I used to be a lot less confrontational, a lot less condescending, and a lot more respectful of other's attitudes.

    However sometimes people are just plain wrong. They won't listen to any sort of evidence or argument, regardless, they rely purely on faith and closing their eyes and ears to the rest of the world - not to mention deliberately ignoring anything which might suggest the slightest contradiction against their beliefs.

    So now I'm quite happy to be confrontational about it, because I get a lot less annoyed that way. As for condescending - if someone's trying to tell me they can levitate with chi, or use energy to imprint memories into a landscape, I'll be as condescending as I please.

    Lighten up.[/QUOTE]
     
  13. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    D

    It is about being objective - and all tests conducted in controlled conditions point to chi as being explainable through everyday processes that have nothing to do with any form of mystic energy

    Of course it COULD be chi, and you cannot prove a negative (why does that have to be reiterated to people??) but parsimony dictates that the likelihood of chi being involved is exceptionally low
     
  14. komuso

    komuso Valued Member

    Hannibal, if you lived closer I would have you permanently doing the intro lecture for research methods.....

    paul
     
  15. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Thanks for the compliment, but there are plenty on MAP better at it than me! I just calls em as I sees em! :)
     
  16. Thelistmaker

    Thelistmaker bats!

    Look at the quote below and ask yourself if you can take your own advice.

    Being condescending would be me telling you you can’t comment because you are you. What I’m saying is you shouldn’t comment on a subject because you have little knowledge of it. It’s the principle that plumbers shouldn’t pontificate on areas of gas fitting and vice versa. – this isn’t about who you are – this is about having an appropriate level of knowledge to let you pontificate on the area you wish to comment on. I wouldn’t comment on a gas-fitting forum for this reason – lack of knowledge.

    No, I just don’t want to spend my time explaining basics for the hundredth time when I have questions of my own I wish to explore.

    If you disagree then I have some cancer curing stones from my garden to sell you. Also, if you take an attitude of accepting every wild nonsense that goes against everything we know about a subject like physics or biology…you end up believing that having sex with a virgin cures aids, or eating an albino will bring you wealth. DO you believe any of these things? If not why not? How could you possibly reject them? Isn’t that just being arrogant?

    Besides, there is a big difference between being certain of one’s own positive positions and knowing someone else is spouting rubbish.


    What does he have a PhD in? I’m sorry but I don’t see how his qualifications are particularly relevant.


    I'm sorry, I can't figure out your main point.
     
  17. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Your friend is suffering from a Chi-belief type disease/brain malfunction.

    My suggestion is you put it to her/him more or less as I have outlined i.e. he/she cannot form a rational opinion on such a subject that anyone with half a gramme of common sense will respond to positively, unless extremely well-versed on the 2 aspects that I mentioned - as anything else is politely, ignorance - like the many Chi threads on MAP.

    Whether you accept this form of persuasion and whether you believe it can positively affect your friend or not (you may well think it will produce an adverse reaction);to adapt a more sensible disposition, is up to you - which is ok. You don't have to, but I have spelled it out to you, pretty explicitly 3 times now. Best of luck in your de-mystification exorcism of your friend.

    If you do try this any of the other lines of reasoning proposed, and you don't get a sensible response/change, then in your shoes I would walk away and try out other folk to train with - but that's just me
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2012
  18. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    why not just don't try to convince anyone. all you can do is research things for yourself, be a skeptic but also be flexible when evidence seemingly points in a different direction and lead by example.

    it's working ok with my kids. try to convince a three-year old to brush his teeth. let me tell you, reason don't work. instead, i make sure he's around my bathroom in the evening for whatever reason, and i leave the door open so he sees me flossing and brushing. guess what, he now wants to brush his teeth at night.

    doesn't work so well for eating broccoli. but we're trying. :)
     
  19. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Not at all. Most light switches are in fairly standard and quite guessable locations.
    Just inside the door about 4-5 foot up.
    Dunno what that adds to your analogy.
    Probably something to do with using prior knowledge to make educated guesses about potential things that may or may not exist? Dunno.
     
  20. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    More that even when you find it and switch it on, with your eyes closed you still won't be able to see.

    If his friend doesn't want to change his beliefs, any evidence the OP shows him will not sway him.

    And who is the OP to be forcing his ideas on anyone?


    Maybe his best bet is to bring his friend here. They could create a thread called "Why can't my friend let me have my own opinions?"
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2012

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