Has anyone here ever used their Tai chi training in real life fighting situation?

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by The_Chosen_One, Nov 2, 2005.

  1. SickDevildog

    SickDevildog Lost In The Sauce

    Gj on not turning this into a flamewar people. :)

    Last night Sifu was teaching us a 45 degree stepping pattern to avoid an incoming opponent/limp/weapon, what I noticed was that it really is principle based, everyone does it a little different, eventhough I'm sure once you master a certain technique it'll pretty much look the same.

    Our style of Tai Chi has Shuai Chiao Incorporated into it, I might be able to pull of a throw, or palm strike, thats about it.

    I didnt do Tai Chi long enough to apply any of the forms in a fight (out of reaction), but I'd be more relaxed, yield better, and more mindful of the opponents and my own center.

    At the end I'd probably resort to some kind of kick boxing since the forms arent engrained yet.
     
  2. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    I was in loads of fights up til I was about 19, but all that was before doing tjq, I'm afraid. I now find tjq tends to help me defuse aggression in myself and others before it happens, but I am 100% confident I would be ok if I had to go further. (see below)

    I also took up ninjutsu after I'd been doing tjq for about 14 years. I had private lessons as well as attending classes and seminars. The classes were basically two hours of partner/technique training with and without various weapons every week. After I got over the initial shock of having to 'go in' on my opponent rather than get away from him (I was great at that lol) and also got past (some of) my aversion to hurting another human being, I found I was actually quite tidy at it thanks to my earlier training :D . I was on a par with people who'd been training it for years within a few weeks. :D I would certainly warn against over-confidence with taiji though, because it is very different handling a 'live one' than doing set pieces like da lu and push hands etc. Both of those are helpful but you need to add pressure and realism in as much as possible so that you don't get a big shock if you're ever in a real fight. I found the ninjutsu really gave me an insight into that (plus having been in stand-up street fights when I was an oik lol :bang: )

    I am now as confident in my ability to defend myself using tjq as I would be using any of the other MA's I've come across.

    I also tend to agree with Nzric on this one a bit also - under the circumstances of an emotionally charged conflict you tend to just 'go for it' and use anything and everything you can... where I differ slightly is that I have kind of built this into my personal training and accepted it rather than it happening as a reaction under pressure. Not easy - but I'm getting there now...
    These days I tend to view myself as neijiaquan based boxer or a kind of (dare I say this in here??! lol :rolleyes: ) mixed-internal martial artist rather than a pure Taiji boxer in that I am comfortable using 'external' methods, headbutts and you name it to get me out of trouble while principally training and defending using Tjq body mechanics. I seem to favour locking techniques also, usually combined with some kind of hard strike either to the locked part or another area as I move round.... :D
    I think the main thing for all MAists - regardless of style - is to never stop until the job is done btw. Just keep piling in and on until the guy is finished (in whatever way that has to happen). In that respect your own self-control and qualms are the main thing to work on. Being an effective MAist and being a 'good guy' is a real challenge imo. Anyone can be a thug :cool:
    :yeleyes:
     
  3. wanderingdaoist

    wanderingdaoist New Member


    There is nothing unfortunate about that.

    I've been in over 20 fights and countless 'challenges', and I'd say that Taiji
    works pretty well in a fight, for no other reason than you learn to 'sense' your opponents intentions when you're in contact with them. In a narrower scope, Taiji Qinna seems to be fairly effective as well, the Wu-style 'grasp the sparrows tail' especially as it has more applications than I have digits (yes, I have all my digits if you're counting, 21...)

    The most important aspect of taiji that makes it applicable in a fight i'd have to say, is the calm demeanor it allows you to maintain. Often in my scrimages I've felt 'detached' almost like an outside observer, which helps one to act instead of react, and take the fight where it needs to go.

    If your next question is 'how do i get to that stage?' well, meditation helps, push-hands helps a lot, and single drills. William C. C. Chen would constantly practice each movement of the form literally 1,000+ times before moving on to the next movement, and when he completed the form, he'd start again. Many masters suggest this. Picking maybe 4/5 movements that seem to fit you particularly well, and just drilling those over and over again, look for new applications etc.
     
  4. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

  5. The_Chosen_One

    The_Chosen_One New Member

    I just wanted to know because this tai chi guy just opened a school next to my house. He is a chinese guy that claims to have practised at Chen village and has certificates. I saw him one day and he was giving me this long lecture about how tai chi was meant to be a powerful martial arts system and it could be used for self defence. I see him every week now and he keeps bugging me and asking me to join his class. Its blantenly a scheme to get more students and more money. From what I read about tai chi it takes a hell of a long time. I told him Im not interested but he keeps telling me.

    I got alittle annoyed the last time I saw him because he was giving me some long story about a white crane master and a tai chi martial artist. This is what I said "Care to give some documented example with sited sources about these scientiic study on chi and its results? I won't say you are a liar but I have a habit of taking something that seems like a pseudoscience with a grain of salt. Besides, if such study was proven to reveal the existence of chi then that would have been a find of the century, but I have never seen such things being published in any scientific journals, so I must assume that those studies and experiments weren't convincing or objective enough to considered scientifically valid." he couldn't do that.

    And as he said that a tai chi practioner can give a MMA or Traditional martial( such as jujitsu, karate or Bujinkan) artist a good match, I told him that he was pushing it, but then again nothing can ever be 100% certain so I am willing to accept the slim possibility that some Tai-Chi master may be able to take on MMA or tradtional fighter or even a UFC fighter. But I think that's extremely unlikely and would be the few exception and not the norm. MMA is a world class proven fighting system(or shall I say philosophy) and works very well in the UFC and the streets fight against some of the toughest fighters on the planet, I doubt any Tai-Chi master has such experience. Tai Chi doesn't train fighting as hard and as well as Mixed Martial Arts and it certainly doesn't test itself on a regular basis and thus can never evolve as fast as modern mixed martial arts can be. I even remember a story about 3 tai chi masters going to thai land in the 1960's and getting their asses whopped within 10 seconds.

    As you can see there is no evidence that tai chi is a martial arts system. NO one has ever used it in the streets before or in a real life fighting situation. There are no UFC tai chi fighters(possible because they might end up in hospital).
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2005
  6. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    Taijiquan people tend not to seek competition or conflict.
    Lots of people have used it historically, but obviously not the persons on here. I think you are jumping to major conclusions without any 'evidence' of your own.
    I know Dan Docherty has competed in full contact using wudang Taiji hasn't he Brido?
    I know Tejitsudo has used it in his workplace - ask him why he ditched TKD and now trains more or less exclusively in tjq.
    Also ask Middleway - he is an experienced doorman and trains Tjq.
    Or did you just set this thread up as an opportunity to start a flame war on the Tai Chi forum? - because those are some pretty provocative statements you just made.
    :Angel:
    PS Is it me or are we under an invasion in TC and IMA forums by MMA and kickboxers???
     
  7. wanderingdaoist

    wanderingdaoist New Member

    If we're under an invasion, we'll do the Taichi thing and let them exprend their energy, and then very appropriately respond.

    As for Taichi not working in a fight, and the legitimacy of Taiji as a self-defense style: yes, it takes a long time to develop fighting ability, unless you train in it specifically for that. I've seen Tjq practioners annihilate wingchun practicioners in competitions, and I've had taiji save my neck a few times, but i won't bore you with long tales of taiji practioners vs. other fighters, as you seem to not want to hear it.
     
  8. The_Chosen_One

    The_Chosen_One New Member

    Sorry to dissapoint you but I don't do flame wars son. I just geninuely want to find out. Its just a bit hard to believe sometimes. Have you read about what happened to those tai chi men that went to thailand? Even Bruce Lee said its just for meditation and exercise. But then again Bruce wasn't perfect and he can be wrong.
     
  9. The_Chosen_One

    The_Chosen_One New Member

    NO if you can prove it then I'll listen and if there is a place on the net I can read about it then give it to me.
     
  10. wanderingdaoist

    wanderingdaoist New Member


    I've already mentioned my past with Taiji as a martial art, and that's proof enough for me, I've also mentioned what makes it 'valuable' in a fight.

    Which is going to be better in a fight, someone who is always tense or someone who knows how to apply their energy effectively? the 'ruan shou dai gang, gang shou dai ruan' philosphy. What this means is that it's soft when it needs to be and hard when it needs to be. Real taiji pracitioners are in no way weak. I've heard from a great many masters that 'liliang' (Physical strength) is important in taiji, just like being relaxed is.

    taiji is about adaptation. so if you can adapt in a fight, if you can react more naturally, of course you'll win.

    If you want a story to illustrate my point: I am not a large guy, i'm strong for my size, but i'm 6'1 and 168 pounds, i'm the typical hard gainer. I used to bounce at a night club called 'the granada' in lawrence, kansas, and the KU football and basketball teams were notorious for causing trouble there, as were their rivals. One particular night during a pharcyde concert, a large fight broke out and one of our bouncers who tried to break the fight up got his nose broken, fell down and was getting a gang-beating. Me and two other door-men (as we actually prefer to be called) intervened and I helped mark, the one with the broken nose up and tried to get him to safety. During this, someone thought it was a good idea to try to throw a jab at me. The first one landed, as I was distracted, the second one was met with my left hand and i proceeded to to a 'small rollback' on him and forced him to the ground. One of his friends, in a very comical way, lunged over him in an attempt to tackle me, and i simply side stepped and did zhuang tui zhang (double push palms) on his right side, and sent him flying into some of this friends. Immediately afterwards I finished getting mark to safety and went back for 'riot control.'
    this was all in the span of about 45-60 seconds of me stepping into the guantlet. So yes, i'd say taichi work just as well as any other system in a fight if you know HOW to use it.
     
  11. TheDarkJester

    TheDarkJester 90% Sarcasm, 10% Mostly Good Advice.


    Taiji Quan as an internal martial art requires the same dedication and practice as an external art would require.

    Now would you make the same statement about a dedicated Mantis/Eagle/CLF/Hung Fist Boxer at the same level as a Taiji master? Chances are not because you're used to seeing things on a hard physical manner. Taiji merely reverses the process, focusing on internal first, then proceeding to external fighting techniques.

    You're failing to realize that no matter what branch of martial art you choose I.E. Internal/External... They are different paths that lead to the same goal.
     
  12. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Careful. That's what got you completely roasted in another thread for. You risk looking takin' yet another hiding and looking silly yet again. :D


    Ok, up to this point the guy sounds like a decent person. He's not trying to foist anything on you. Tai Chi can be powerful... there are people who practice it that take people apart on doors of rougher places nightly. That's not saying everyone in the park doing push-hands can hold their own... but they are out there.

    Then this is on you. Take some responsibility and put it to the guy in no uncertain terms that your not interested. Show some spine and deal with it.
    From what you have posted - there is no 'blatant scheme' in sight. A guy has approached you several times about studying with him. No crime in that. The problem is that you can't figure out to let the guy know that you aren't interested. Again that comes down to your interpersonal skills not his business practices. To try to now call him a scammer because you lack communication skills is lame. Trying to draw some correlation to the lenght of time something needs to be studied in order to use it to shore up your assertion that guy is a scammer reflects poorly on you... not him.
    Why get annoyed. Your the one standing there. He's not got a gun to your head. Are you so bashful that you can't say... 'Right mate, short on time gotta go.' - :confused:

    LOL! :D
    Don't be trying to plagarize my post's here on map!
    You really come off as silly to an extent. All of this could easily be avoided if you were honest about things.... don't stand there and suffer this guy if you plainly are not interested. Much of life is in choosing carefully which battles to fight. Unless this guy was on about 'chi blast's' and orgone accumulators... you might find you can learn something before jumping on with the scientific journal stuff. Seriously - how many scientific journals have you got subscriptions to? :D

    You tread thin ice here for no reason. I had a cup of coffee and a lengthy training session with a door guy who is heavy into Tai Chi and he's been the director of security for quite some time for a very large international chain of strip/gentelmens clubs. He's worked on the door for years - and ya know... coming from a competitive fighting background (MT/Boxing) myself I have no doubt this guy would take any and all challengers and put a severe hurting on most of them. Quite frankly I was more than happy to train with the guy, listen to him and share ideas... I certainly wouldn't have wanted to have to actually fight the guy - and he's never billed himself as a 'Tai Chi master'. :eek:

    You're making a lot of gross generalizations here. As if all MMA fighters fought the same... as if all Tai Chi people trained or fought the same. There are different applications for different people. Simple as that. We've had MMA guys come down to our gym that were rubbish. They couldn't make the shoot for all their tough talk and got rocked. However the Tai Chi guy I trained with the other day would have easily pounded many of our fighters in a mixed match. So blanket generalizations on this kind of an issue don't really wash.

    I am well aware of the fights in Thailand - I posted many of the original links to the articles here on MAP regarding these fights. However that doesn't immediately invalidate Tai Chi. Those fighters didn't anymore represent all of Tai Chi than I represent all of Muay Thai.

    Grow up. You're making statements that are ignorant. Tai Chi has been used in the streets many times... and on doors all over the UK and other places. You are only parading your ignorance of Tai Chi by trying to draw conclusions which can't be drawn. If you're so keen on MMA or Muay Thai - then stop you whining and go join up at an MMA or Muay Thai gym... but you really come off as a crybaby here.

    You couldn't hike up pants and tell this Tai Chi bloke that you weren't interested so you then jump on the forum and slag Tai Chi as a whole. Simply ignorant. :bang: FWIW - this is coming from someone who has fought competitivley in one of the arts you mentioned - and one who usually is at odds with many people like Tai Ji Buttertroll. But your post really show true n00b quality - save yourself and everyone else a lot of grief and get a spine and some interpersonal communication skills. And then go sign up where you want to sign up at. It's that simple. :bang:
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2005
  13. sparrow

    sparrow Chirp!

    Here's a story about my teacher's Chinese master, a student of Chen Man Ching.
    On moving to Taiwan, he set about starting up his own school, but the local teachers were not too pleased about it and politely suggested that he should leave. He agreed that he would, if any one of them could get past him and leave the room within ten minutes. Ten minutes later, unsuccessful and exhausted, they had to agree to let him open his school. One of them stayed with him and became one of his senior students.
     
  14. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    Just defending my corner

    STJ - get over it - move on. I have.
    Stop personally attacking me and slagging me off to get your kicks, please.
    (I just reported that post btw and will do so every time you do this until one of the mods actually does something about it)
    Get over your ego and stick to the topic for once.
    And before you call me a troll again look at what you do on this forum every day mate. You just start trouble and it's pathetic. Stop.
    Nuff said.
    :Angel:
     
  15. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Apparently not.
    Otherwise you wouldn't have posted what you did in this thread.

    Don't try to shift the blame because you got taken to task for not being able to back up ludicrous statements. As for sticking on topic... your the one that brought MT and Kickboxing into this one with your silly post. Follow your own advice.... or continue to embarrass yourself. Simple really. :D The thread is still there for all to read - including yourself if you've forgotten.

    Another thing genius... I have posted on topic in this thread. Quite at length and quite on topic... so do some reading before you flap your lips.
     
  16. Infrazael

    Infrazael Banned Banned

    Ah shut up both of you. :D

    Silly Rabbit(s), Trix are for Kids!!!
     
  17. sparrow

    sparrow Chirp!

    Aahhh - ego and testosterone - what a wonderful combination! Why not try yeilding? Then it's your attacker who looks stupid (to anyone with half a brain).
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2005
  18. The_Chosen_One

    The_Chosen_One New Member

    I already told the guy I might not be able to join but Id be interested in training after Im sure what I have got myself into. Read the Post



    Again read the post

    How would you feel if everytime someone comes up to you and ask you the same thing after you told them you want to find out more first?

    And you are coming off overly critical here. You should be more careful before making judgements about people so quickly.



    NO these are not generalisations just a mere attempt to understand the art better?How long has this guy been training for and how long do you reckon it will take before you can use tai chi effectively?

    Can you post me some articles to read on this because alot of what I've been told is heresay. How do you know these guys weren't true Tai chi Masters or Practioners?

    again is all this silly insults necessary? I admit I was abit ignorant to the China man but I never openly degraded Tai chi here on the post so what is you problem?

    Read the post I was at least honest with the guy.


    I don't think all of your critisism is justified. I already said in the post that I told the guy I might not join his club. All I was asking is if what this guy is saying about TJC is true.
     
  19. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    I once fought the law but the law won.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2005
  20. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    :rolleyes:
    I fought. Derefore I woz. :D
     

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