Has anyone heard of Soryu Karate?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Soryu, Jul 13, 2006.

  1. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Since I had sparred with both Joe Alvarado and his black belts back in the 70th. I think I need to say someting here even if I don't train Soryu Karate myself.

    - Evolution is good. Joe Alvarado brought himself and his students into the full contact world back in the 70th that was good for Karate.
    - It's also good for Joe to give credit to his original style. Many people may call themselves "new style founder", Joe didn't do that.
    - Joe did reach to the higest level of Karate and be able to drop his opponent by one punch to the chest. I haven't seen too many people who can do that today.
    - Joe's school emphasized more on sparring than Kata. To me, that's the right path. After you have developed the ability to take care your opponent, you can talk about "peace" as much as you want.
    - ...
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2013
  2. tatsuo koyasu

    tatsuo koyasu New Member

    I am quite aware of Alvarado's history. I never had an adversarial relation with him. As a matter of fact he was always cordial and friendly with me. I tried Karate Joe's way when I first came back from Japan. I very quickly developed a dislike for all of the Macho Bravado associated with it. I came close to quiting all together. Fortunately my career returned me to overseas where I reconnected with my roots and have remained with it since. If the course you have taken trips your trigger more power to you. Please do not confuse it with traditional Soryu Karate-Do. Joe did not claim a new style however that is what he created which is fine and I do not object to it. Joe had a vision for the direction he wanted to take his art which was different than Koyasu's vision. Koyasu's vision was different than his teacher, Kanken Toyama, which led him to found Soryu Karate-Do. Toyama Sensei studied and taught Seito Okinawan Karate-Do. Some refer to it as Shudokan Ryu today. The classic part of what Toyama taught is still taught in traditional Soryu Karate-Do today.
    As far as Kata are concerned. It is not only a preservation of History but if they are taught correctly the lessons of Kumite are contained within. One can build a tool chest of technique to draw on in Jiyu and Jissen Kumite. It certainly has served me well. Without resorting to teaching a lot of Jiyu Kumite, I and several of my senior students have been successful in self defense situations. Most all of students retain a self confidence to handle themself when confronted.
    Traditional Soryu Karate-Do has a lot offer and is available to those that desire it.

    Tatsuo Koyasu
     
  3. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    traditional? :' S

    I just had a thought. Both of these groups are teaching versions of a style that was only made up in the late 1960's. Not really a lot of tradition either way when your system is less than 50 years old. That's not a problem really. If they are happy with their systems the way that they were taught them then so be it.

    The concern appears to be whether people will mis-construe the older version (pre-official version) as being the same as the official version that is in place today. We had a similar problem occur with the karate system I was studying back in the 70's. One guy had taken his own view on things after the Master of the system had moved back to Kyoto. He was told to stop mis-representing himself but appealled to the Master back in Kyoto. He was given leave to call his system ''name withheld karate'' ''Jones version''. To this day both version are in the area and they have some similarities and some differences.

    Every generation has someone creating a new form of martial art and someone else claiming ownership or something similar. Personally I would just be more worried about making sure what was being done worked and was consistent with your sensei's ideals rather than whether someone else on the other side of the continent was using a similar name for their style.

    Does anyone know if the founder gave Joe Alvarado leave to teach? If it was given then I don't see how anyone can complain about what he is doing. I think since the system founder died in 2008 (I believe) that this sounds like a control thing more than anything of any real importance. Life is too short peeps...

    LFD
     
  4. O-chaa

    O-chaa New Member

    Talk Peace and Balance Now

    I can understand where you're coming from if you encountered Joe Alvarado back in the 70s, while the training was a little more challenging than it is today. Here's a tough American who just came back from Japan, and was giving Americans a taste of what he had experienced. I agree that it was good for karate, and I agree that it was good of him to pay tribute to his own style.

    However, the part I take issue with is the self-promotion. We know that Joe Alvarado and his successors, such as Chris Lopez Sr., made significant changes to the system. This is just fine, especially if you let your Japanese sensei know what you have done and he is totally OK with it. But they didn't do that. In fact, they claimed to have broken away from Japan after Richard Guerra was promoted to 7th dan, although this is also under investigation. It would have been ethical for Joe Alvarado to change the name of his system and carry on as he did. Again, he didn't do that. He kept the Soryu name, claimed himself the founder of it, and proceeded to promote his students up to 9th dan, when he, himself was only a 4th dan. That is deceptive to those students who seek a closer connection to the origin of the style. There's a reason people come to Japan to study karate. If you knowingly mislead people into thinking they are studying something they are not, hmm, well, why would you do that?

    First, that's not really the highest level of karate. Karate has to do with your entire life and achieving a balance. That doesn't apply to all martial arts, but definitely "karate." Second, if you come to Okinawa, you will meet many many people who can do a one touch knock out. It's not as unusual as you think. Also, these sensei in Okinawa who are in their 70s are still practicing, and they will keep practicing until the day they die. Joe Alvarado and Chris Lopez don't practice anymore. They are "retired." Yet, Chris Lopez wears 9 stripes on his belt?

    There are several valuable things in kata. In the traditionalist view, kata is simply an exaggeration of techniques you would use in sparring/fighting. I understand, however, that your view is becoming increasingly more popular, especially among Westerners. I think it would be good to talk about "peace" now, or before any hypothetical situation escalates into a violent one. If it is necessary to use force, then by all means I'd use it 100 percent and with maximum focus. Again, the macho bravado sometimes associated with the Central Texas group will get you a violent situation, and it will get you there faster. Karate's original purpose was not to do that. It was to be used as a last resort, hence the use of a dojo kun. That is another major trait that separates a more Westernized version of karate from its original Japanese version.
     
  5. O-chaa

    O-chaa New Member

    But it IS important.

    Just let me clarify that the Central Texas version of Soryu is not the "official" version. Soryu is still being practice in Sasebo, Nagasaki, and if anything were to be called "official" that would be it.

    The situation you describe regarding the master who returned to Kyoto involves his student being given permission to use that name. Central Texas has gotten no permission thus far. The modern-day practical no-nonsense martial artist would only be concerned with testing the techniques and keeping what works. However, the problem is that the techniques have been changed so much in Central Texas that a great deal has been left out. No one is at a greater disadvantage than the student because of this. If you do back and ask Joe Alvarado how to do Kusanku, he does not remember. I know because I tried to ask him. He can teach things that work for police officers and practical self-defense. But, it's not Soryu karate.

    Lying about your rank and promoting yourself within a system that isn't yours is a pretty bogus practice. Especially if students really want to study the original style and want to get close to the source and receive complete information. To people who don't care about the philosophy and who are willing to take only partial knowledge of the techniques may not care. But, in essence, it IS important because we are talking about public misrepresentation/false advertising. I know when I go shopping, I wanna get what it says is in the box. Just because you get a black belt in 2 years doesn't mean you can call yourself 10th dan and use a Japanese system's name to misrepresent your product. That is, unless permission is obtained from the original source. And it hasn't been thus far.
     
  6. tatsuo koyasu

    tatsuo koyasu New Member

    Well said!!!

    Tatsuo Koyasu
     
  7. Kwajman

    Kwajman Penguin in paradise....

    What an interesting thread so far! Thank you all for your input.
     
  8. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    tell me more, tell me more..

    SO the last few lines.. you are ok if someone gets a quick grading to 10th dan if the head guys says it's ok? But Joe's 4th dan wasn't ok? Even though given by the founder? It can't be both ways.. the founder was correct when he gave it out or he isn't able to judge who deserves a belt.

    I don't know why I am answering your comments but I went and did a bit of poking about as I do remember the politics in karate back in the day...

    To be fair, I did read stuff on Facebook that did suggest that J Alvarado was far more aggressive in his approach than his Japanese teacher or the lower dan grades that came after him. You feel that the approach that is closer to the present version of the style in Japan is better. You could be right.

    It might also be possible that what happened in Texas isn't much different than what happened in New York when Peter Urban started up American Goju to reflect his changes to make the system more useful for American streets.
    The name change might be all that is needed to resolve this.

    You will let us know a bit about yourself now won't you? Thanks.

    LFD
     
  9. O-chaa

    O-chaa New Member

    Proof

    Interesting that you feel a need to clarify this as I mentioned I believe the Texans started before there was an ''official'' version of the style.. at least the head guy was trained in Japan to a 4th dan standard. One must believe that the founder only gave him that rank because he deserved it.


    That is not entirely correct. Joe Alvarado trained in Japan before Soryu became an "official" style, but Michio Koyasu, Alvarado's teacher, still claimed his dojo as a "Soryu" dojo. Although Alvarado may have started teaching in Texas before the style became official (this has also not yet been proven), that really gives not special permissions to the Texans. Yes, you are correct. 4th dan. OK, let's remember, 4th dan. Although, I have never seen Alvarado's certificate either.

    This may seem odd to you but if I was being taught and my teacher said you are learning fudoshin karate then I would call what I taught later fudoshin as well. The name was being used before there was an official version so I would have thought, as mentioned before, calling it Alvarado's Soryu would have allowed everyone to be happy. It sounds like he made some changes and perhaps the name should reflect that. There may well be a time when the name should change completely but I am not sure it's that straight forward at the moment.

    Sure, I think it's OK to say you are teaching Soryu karate, as long as you don't try to promote others to 9th dan when you are only a 4th. When one does that, it automatically implies that you hold something higher than the rank you are promoting someone to. If someone's going to keep the name of a style, they need to be honest about the rank they received. Otherwise they are only telling half truths. Using the name "Soryu" has an implication that they are associated and approved by the Nagasaki Honbu, which is misleading, especially if you carry an 8th or 9th dan and have little to no knowledge about the origins of the style which name you use. This is, unfortunately, the case in Texas. Although, some people are trying to reconnect with the honbu, which is good.

    I think it sounds like you are from one of the other Soryu karate clubs and you think that the Texas clubs should get in line and do what is expected in the new curriculum. The only thing you have had to do with MAP has been to say things against this one group. Are you?


    Does it sound that way? Actually, you may be surprised to know that I trained with them for two years. I trained with 5 Texas instructors, including Joe Alvarado. My experience with them was this: They have very short tempers, are very proud, and they refuse to learn more about the origins of their style. The training was not challenging enough, physically. At one exam, I did not complete the sparring portion, yet I was handed a 2nd kyu certificate anyway. That happened to be the straw that broke the camel's back. The classes were sometimes lacking in discipline and order, with children constantly running around (although this was not the case for all of the instructors). Some of the locking techniques made very little sense, or were just poorly taught. One of the instructors just sat in his regular clothes in a chair while a green belt led the class. The only tournaments we participated in were AOK tournaments, which are terrible "tag" tournaments. They are notorious for the "everyone gets a trophy" philosophy.

    I trained with Joe Alvarado and his knowledge was useful, but it was more self-defense than Soryu karate. He worked with the police for several years, so I know he has valuable knowledge, but it has been changed most definitely. I don't have a personal issue with Alvarado at all. As I said before, what I take issue with is the fact that he is issuing 8th and 9th dan certificates that say Soryu on them. (They are also littered with type-o's and poor grammar, making them seem even more obviously inauthentic.)

    I now live in Okinawa, Japan and have satisfied my search for more serious training. I feel that if I had known then what I know now about Soryu karate in Texas, I would definitely have found a style that was more fitting. The reason I write about this is because I believe others deserve more than half truths about the style they are planning on investing time and money in. I was deceived and don't believe anyone else should have to be.

    I looked about for this to see what was easily visible online. I saw the Texans give credit to the Japanese school and Joe Alvarado claim no more than the 4th dan he was given. I did see him given a ceremonial 10th Dan by a group honouring his contributions to American karate etc.. It doesn't seem you are being very honourable if you are spreading half truths. Can you verify where you have seen him claiming all these honours as real grades?

    Again, how can a 4th dan issue an 8th or 9th dan? The 10th dan was not given by the Japan Soryu group, the originators of the style. Here is all the evidence you want: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=120060

    I have done all the researched mentioned in the article above and am getting ready to post more about Richard Guerra's 7th dan. There are screenshots from the facebook pages of the Texas members. I am not going to post anything I can't back up with evidence.

    It seems that , as I mentioned earlier, you are saying things you need to prove. You also make it sound like , as being from the rival group, you have a better knowledge of the truth. Personally I don't know what's true but it does seem like you are out to smear this guy.

    Take a look at the proof and let me know if you need more. I got a lot of information from James Caldwell, whom I've mentioned in previous posts. I never have trained with Mr. Caldwell, only discussed things. He does not have anything against the Texas group, he just says what he knows to be true. But he also doesn't know what it's like to invest time in a karate style and then find out it wasn't all that you thought it was, that there was a lack of honesty and clarity involved. I do.

    SO the last few lines.. you are ok if someone gets a quick grading to 10th dan if the head guys says it's ok? But Joe's 4th dan wasn't ok? Even though given by the founder? It can't be both ways.. the founder was correct when he gave it out or he isn't able to judge who deserves a belt.

    Michio Koyasu, the founder of Soryu never gave Joe Alvarado a 10th dan. That means Alvarado has no legitimate authority to promote others up to 9th dan in Soryu. The highest Alvarado can legitimately promote someone else to in Soryu is 3rd dan. I hope that clarifies my position a little better.

    The resolution, I believe, lies in forfeiting the Soryu name all together. In comparative study of the Texas curriculum, the resemblance is not close enough to the original to justify utilizing the name. That is something I would like to study in further detail. It may parallel the present situation in many other Americanized karate styles today.
     
  10. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    I can see clearly now..

    Thanks very much for giving me more information.

    I looked at the Bullshido link and I will tell you what it looks like so far :

    Joe Alvarado has a 4th dan that was recognized/originally given by Soryu in Japan

    Richard Guerra was given a 7th dan by the headquarters in Japan but it isn't clear whether it was indicated that this was an honourable grade on the certificate.

    People have claimed grades (although since there have been no certificates produced) that are quite advanced. There is here say evidence that Joe Alvarado made these promotions but there is nothing available to connect him to any of these claims. So far all comments linking him to his students claims of high ranks in Soryu are speculative.

    Your claims on bullshido have been on hold for a few months waiting for evidence before being taken any further.

    Is this correct then?

    Just out of interest, your attitude seems to have changed since you wrote this statement about Joe Alvarado in late June 2012 - '' I give many thanks to Sensei Joe Alvarado, the man who brought Soryu to Texas, for inspiring me to push the boundaries, follow in his footsteps, and seek training in Japan.''

    I am not identifying you on purpose but I can supply the web address if you want the quote verified.

    addenum - Ok I read a bit further and I see O-chaa that you had a falling out with the organisation (I won't get into the particulars here) and left over a dispute. I can see from what you have posted why you moved on to Kyokushin/Enshin and have stayed away from the sport karate side of things. I can respect that and see how that will get you closer to your goals as a karateka. Personally I would stay with going after your own goals and see what you can do to progress. The Texan Soryu group and their org will survive or not independent of what you do, what is said on here or anything else. Save your energy for better things.. I'm going to leave this thread alone as I don't really see it going anywhere in the near future.

    O-chaa, best of luck with your training.

    LFD
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2013
  11. O-chaa

    O-chaa New Member

    Richard Guerra was given a 7th dan by the headquarters in Japan but it isn't clear whether it was indicated that this was an honourable grade on the certificate.

    That's correct. I have a photograph of Guerra's certificate as well as some commentary from James Caldwell that will be posted soon. The certificate does not look authentic. Guerra's name appears to be written in his own handwriting, sideways, and it is not written in katakana. There are also numerous abnormalities on the certificate that I will point out in the future post. It will be up within the next week.

    People have claimed grades (although since there have been no certificates produced) that are quite advanced. There is here say evidence that Joe Alvarado made these promotions but there is nothing available to connect him to any of these claims. So far all comments linking him to his students claims of high ranks in Soryu are speculative.

    Actually, there is a photo of Joe Alvarado handing Chris Lopez a certificate on the website, along with a description of that photo captured in the screenshot. If that's not proof enough, I don't know what is.

    Just out of interest, your attitude seems to have changed since you wrote this statement about Joe Alvarado in late June 2012 - '' I give many thanks to Sensei Joe Alvarado, the man who brought Soryu to Texas, for inspiring me to push the boundaries, follow in his footsteps, and seek training in Japan.''

    Yes and no. Joe Alvarado did work with me and offered me much valuable information. I really wanted to train in Japan, and Joe Alvarado was a person who had done that. I wanted to get to the source of it all, to learn what he had learned, to have the cultural experience that he had. However, this was before I was advised that he was promoting people to 8th dan, 9th dan, etc. This was before I had spoken with others about Soryu karate and found out the truth about the curriculum and the self-promotion. In that sense, yes my attitude has changed.

    addenum - Ok I read a bit further and I see O-chaa that you had a falling out with the organisation (I won't get into the particulars here) and left over a dispute. I can see from what you have posted why you moved on to Kyokushin/Enshin and have stayed away from the sport karate side of things. I can respect that and see how that will get you closer to your goals as a karateka...

    Actually, I left because my 2nd kyu was handed to me without me completing the sparring portion of my exam. There was no one particular dispute that led me to leave the organization, but a series of red flags. Some examples are an inconsistent curriculum, lack of valuable character traits that I seek in an effective martial arts instructor, inflated egos, lack of knowledge, poor and unclear teaching methodology, boasting, dishonesty regarding rank, and lack of temper control (I filed a police report on one of the instructors because he swung a door into me).

    ...Personally I would stay with going after your own goals and see what you can do to progress. The Texan Soryu group and their org will survive or not independent of what you do, what is said on here or anything else. Save your energy for better things.. I'm going to leave this thread alone as I don't really see it going anywhere in the near future.

    Actually, one of my own personal goals is to combat the fraud that is frequently occurring in martial arts today. It is a significant problem, and a worthy goal. It is imperative that people have full knowledge of fraud and that they know ahead of time who they will choose to be training with. People don't deserve to be lied to or cheated. Period. This thread has already contributed a great deal to accurately informing others of the practices involved in the Texas Soryu group. You don't see it going anywhere? It's actually gone pretty far already. Perhaps it doesn't really signify anything of importance to you (although that's hard to believe based on your responses), but you certainly cannot speak for the rest of the martial arts community on this forum or any other concentrated geographical area.
     
  12. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Honourable or honorary?
     
  13. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Do you have a pic of both sides?
     
  14. O-chaa

    O-chaa New Member

    Front and back, no. I only have a photo of the front. Why do you ask?
     
  15. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    He wanted to see if the back had a special mark on it.

    One that reads: "Printed for free at Vistaprint.com!"

    (Other online print services are available)
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2013
  16. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    I guess I was thought that when you wrote a threat in your blog the day after you felt you were mistreated at a tournament that this might be the basis of what you are doing - this was posted the day after you put up the glowing comments about Joe.

    ''I ask you, AOK, do you have what it takes to meet in the ring, full contact? You won’t have anywhere to hide. Are you ready for the truth to be revealed? Ready or not, here it comes. People are becoming aware now, of what you hoped they would never realize. We are witnessing the de-evolution of martial arts, and practices such as yours are primary contributors. Evolution can only occur when we are ready to face our weaknesses and start living a life of rigorous honesty.

    I will be back, AOK. Be ready for the wake-up call of a lifetime. ''

    You sound committed. I can see that you are persistent. I will probably keep an eye on the Bullshido thread to see where this all goes. This time I really am out of here... what am I doing on a karate thread in the first place :' P

    LFD
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2013
  17. peterc8455

    peterc8455 Valued Member

    [whispers] hey LFD you just outted her :evil:
     
  18. peterc8455

    peterc8455 Valued Member

    I do not study Soryu karate nor do I know any of the participants here.

    However, I found this thread interesting and when doing some research found the following information and stories contained here about these guys fascinating expecially Mr. Lopez's stories from the Austin PD and "What have you done with the style?":

    https://www.facebook.com/soryukarate?filter=1

    Remind me again what is the problem with these guys?
     
  19. SenseiGrove

    SenseiGrove New Member

    Soryu in New Braunfles

    I'm glad i found this forum.

    im a 3rd dan under jesse lussier in new braunfels. i do not practice soryu but alverado-ryu... which we call soryu.

    about three years ago i just started larning about the true roots through edward huetra which is a certified 6th dan from the humbu dojo in sosebo japan which the real soryu orginates.

    i have much to learn and look forward to one day learning the real soryu, starting over at white... i can't wait!

    and i'm not one for politics, i could care less about all the drama. all i know is i love what i have learned, whatever you want to call it, i wouldn't be who i am without it, soryu or alverado-ryu. its brutal, and not many survive past green belt.

    i run an alverado-ryu school in new braunfels and have about 17 students, anymore and i couldn't keep the focus sincere. i train hard, and i don't hand out belts or give rewards for participation or trying. many dojos in town do that and you can tell by the quality of their "kuro obi's"... complete pansies. my purple belts could put up a good fight to most "black belts" from the surrounding dojos.

    i'd love to connect with everyone here. i have a facebook page for my school, Trinity Martial Arts, i also have a social group under the same name. also a youtube channel with plenty of videos of our kata and sparring. i have a long way to go, and i am just learning, almost feels like i'm a white belt at times. but this is my passion. i love soryu, and wish to call it my own one day.

    SenseiGrove

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2013
  20. SenseiGrove

    SenseiGrove New Member

    only speaking for myself here and MY dojo and training experience (starting in 1998 under Jesse Lussier, student of Chris Lopez, under Joe Alverado)

    1) What tournaments?
    i was never really pressured into tournaments. i did two but didn't care for the point sparring. we didn't do the soft points under Jesse as they expected in the tourny so i kept getting points off for over aggression. :/

    2) What techniques?
    i was taught to keep the attacks/counter attcks simple. two to three strikes. never just block. turn your block INTO a strike. the blocks ARE strikes is what alverado told me. then demonstrated it and knocked me out... it was awesome! haha

    3) What is the pedigree if the system?
    all i know is it has ties under michio koyasu through joe alverado. not sure honestly how to answer the question either...

    4) what type of people quit?
    wimps... soccar moms not liking johnny getting hit in the face. "sorry, this is karate ma'am". usually kids and the parents get overly emotional when failing a belt test, and the parents take it personally as if i failed them on purpose, its quite sad.

    5) what level of contact do you employ?
    i employ controlled contact for the little ones. as they grow older and can show more control i allow controlled face but no bellow the belt. as the adults progress with their accuracy and technique i allow everything. depends on what kind of training we're doing to. but again, this is how i train MY students, i recognize this is not orthodox but it works with what i expect of my students.

    6) what pressure testing do you do?
    i devide the belts up into three difficulty levels. white/yellow/orange, purple/green/blue and brown(3,2,1 kue)/kuro-obi. each level has more and more difficult levels of fitness tests and requirements, heavier exception on form, technique and control. the sparring progressively becomes harder and longer. such as for black belt we require 20x, 2min full contact, continuous rounds. for me personally i focus on the pinans and sparring. others may focus merely on the kihon drills and fitness...

    SenseiGrove

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2013

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