hangetsu dachi -Bad For Knees?

Discussion in 'Karate' started by TheAngle, Aug 6, 2009.

  1. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    You've brought up quite a few myths here as regards bodybuilding. As you are new to map, may I advise you to have a look through some of the stickie threads on weights and strength in the relevant forums, otherwise you will get flamed by some of the regulars. :)
     
  2. Shotofan

    Shotofan Byakko (the wyte tygur)

    Interesting... I do not intend to mislead anyone! These are just things I have observed and have found to be consistently true, even in my experience. I am very curious! Which part of my statement is myths exactly? I will be sure to take your advice and read the recomended threads.

    Arigato-gozaimasu!
     
  3. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    Shotofan: i insist :). you will not actually become more explosive, per se, but since you will refine your technique (learning to lead the punch with the elbow in, aiming with the index knuckle, separating the motions of arm extention and arm rotation so that the latter does not slow down the former, etc), you will gradually eliminate superfluous motions and end up with straighter tsukis, which will go faster and make more efficient contact, giving the "illusion", so to speak, of more explosiveness, when it's actually a combination of a more efficient movement with whatever explosiveness development you did BESIDES your sanchin kata practice.

    take it from a naha-te addict, sanchin does not work your explosiveness, it only makes it easier to apply correctly that which you already have ;)
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2009
  4. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    Karate is pretty awful as regards the health of your knees, yes.
     
  5. Llamageddon

    Llamageddon MAP's weird cousin Supporter

    If trained improperly. And lets not forget that pretty much every other sport that uses the legs is bad for the knees. The human being is a crap design
     
  6. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    sorry KE but now you're grasping at straws to fuel your own cynism. i've been training in a shotokan dojo for over a year to strengthen my legs, and my lower body fitness has probably tripled since i started, while my knees are stronger than ever. and guess what, i got that though long, low stances and lots of kiba dachi, because i thought about what i was doing, analized it, and was therefore able to do it correctly without any of the injuries people blame on karate training.
     
  7. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    It really depends on what style you do and how you train it.

    Karate certainly was a significant factor in the knee problems I developed as a child. But that I think was due more to the auxillary exercises and manner of training than to the specifics of the techniques themselves. Ballistic stretching and strongly kicking empty air certainly didn't help me. In defence of karate, in the 1970s most arts trained in the same way. I could equally well have pranged my knees doing kung fu or kickboxing.

    I do personally believe that the combination of deep stances and high kicks that you see in some karate styles is detrimental to the knees, especially if you already have some sort of problem. But some people can thrive on that sort of training, as Fish's experience indicates.

    I stopped training for a good few years, partly as a result of knee problems. However, I modified the way I train and found a style much more suitable for my body. I've been training again for 15 years or so and my knees continue to go from strength to strength.

    Mike
     
  8. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    As Fish pointed out, the best thing for developing explosiveness is a drill that is itself explosive. The kind of muscular contraction used in Sanchin is largely isometric, ie. the muscles are stationary (or at least moving very slow). Numerous studies have shown that isometric workouts are not the best for developing explosive power.

    They can however have a role to play. Isometric exercises can help to provide a base level of strength from which to build. They are also potentially safer than more explosive, plyometric drills - which do have a higher risk of injury, especially if you haven't already developed a strength base to build on.

    Personally I don't do Sanchin for its strengthening benefits. I think there are more effective tools for that job. When I practice Sanchin I use it to train the muscles to interact in a particular way, rather than for muscular development per se.

    Mike
     
  9. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    Just for comparitive purposes, Sanchin stance and some of its offspring...

    Goju Ryu Sanchin

    [​IMG]

    Wado Ryu Seisan (basically Wado Ryu's version of Sanchin stance)

    [​IMG]

    Wado Ryu Tate (vertical) Seisan (a long, thin version of the same stance)

    [​IMG]

    And the Shotokan Hangetsu

    [​IMG]

    I rest my case regarding the exaggeration of the Shotokan version.

    Mike
     
  10. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    Cool. I've always had knee problems when I've done karate, personally. Must be something to dow with the way I train.
     
  11. Llamageddon

    Llamageddon MAP's weird cousin Supporter

    Maybe it's something to do with how your instructor trains you, or perhaps your body itself, and perhaps even your attitude. For every one person who quits after four weeks because they've 'irreparably' damaged their joints, I know two people in their 40s or above who still train and have had no problems whatsoever. Go figure
     
  12. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    If by "exaggeration," you mean that it's more pronounced (namely wider and longer) than the Goju and Wado versions, no doubt, you've proven your point.

    If by "exaggeration," you mean that it's excessively wide and long, that it's "enlarged beyond reason," and that it doesn't accomplish anything, (reply #5), those pictures don't prove that argument at all.
     
  13. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    Agreed, but only up to a point. I think the pics are just one small demonstration of how Shotokan techiques were 'larged up', given that no other style (as far as I'm aware) does an inner circular stance of this size. Hence, its fair to say that the Shotokan version is exaggerated.

    Excessively so? I'd say so. In terms of its function I'll turn the question around and ask you what its meant to achieve. Is it harmful? I believe it certainly can be, most likely due to abduction of the tibia putting stress on the medial ligaments. I'll try and find some online medical reference on the subject and get back to you.

    Mike
     
  14. Llamageddon

    Llamageddon MAP's weird cousin Supporter

    on a semi related note: how many shotokan people regularly train hangetsu dachi (apart from when performing Hangetsu...)

    It would be interesting to see the frequency of use of such stances, as the stances that are considered the most harmful are, in my experience, not trained much
     
  15. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    As a sixth kyu (it's a long story as to why I'm still a sixth kyu after roughly three years of Shotokan) who has only trained the Heian katas as "my katas" (I've worked on others, but only as a "following along while the upper ranks work on something), I can't give you a good answer. But that doesn't mean there isn't a good answer; it just means I'm still wet behind the ears.

    My previous instructor's favorite kata was Hangetsu; I can only presume that he found something useful in it. Unfortunately, I lost contact with him when I moved, so I can't ask him.
     
  16. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    As I said earlier, I'd try to find some online literature re: the potential problems of such a large inner circular stance.

    Basically it comes down to what's known as the q-angle. That's the angle between the femur (the bone in the upper leg) and the line of pull on the kneecap from the lower leg. Roughly speaking, that's the angle between the femur in the upper leg and the tibia in the lower leg. Here's a nice short description and quite a good pic.

    Q-angle

    The same page cites normal q-angle as less than 15 degrees for men and 20 degrees for women, exceeding this can give rise to possible knee disorders.

    In essence, by taking up such an extreme posture you're emulating knock-knee syndrome aka genu valgum. The following article gives a good (if detailed) description of the functional anatomy of the knee.

    Knee and Leg Trauma

    Of particular interest to us are the statements:

    "Injuries due to excessive stress appear especially on the short arm of a first-class-lever joint such as the knee and elbow. This is found with injury to the medial collateral ligament when valgus overstressed."

    In other words - Valgus (another word ford genu valgum / knock knees) can place stress with risk of injury on the medial collateral ligament, the main ligament on the inner aspect of the knee joint.

    Also:

    "Genu Valgum (Valgus): Physical Signs of Knock-Knees ... There will also be (1) excessive internal rotation of the femur and ... excessive external rotation of the tibia and internal rotation restriction"

    Hangetsu-dachi certainly does involve rotating the upper leg (femur) internally and a slight external rotation of the lower leg (tibia) relative to the femur. In other words, hangetsu-dachi is effectively making yourself knock-kneed for the duration of the stance.

    I found another interesting point here:

    Online Knee Library

    in the statement:

    "Medial Collateral Ligament (also known as tibial collateral ligament, or TCL): located on the medial side of the knee, the MCL serves to protect the knee against inwards-acting (valgus-directed) forcing. Because it is surrounded by connective tissue (the retinaculum), it can (if not too severely torn) scar over and thereby "self-heal". (The MCL is the only major knee ligament capable of this. Note that for this "self-healing" to be of value, the knee must be protected against valgus-type forcing during the scarring-over period.) "

    Simply put, making yourself knock-kneed hampers the MCL's ability to self-repair.

    Its actually quite hard to find literature that discusses repetitive strains on joints, rather than on one-off traumatic injuries. However, the effects of long-term repetitive strains shouldn't be under-estimated. Here's an example of a similar thing in another part of the body:

    Cell phone elbow

    Imagine that! Serious injury can be caused simply by holding your phone to your ear for too long. Imagine then the long-term effects of practising a stance that puts undue strain on the knees.

    Mike
     
  17. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Thanks Mike. Looking at those angles, that means that the majority of parallel foot kiba dachi are far worse, whereas shiko dachi is less damaging.
     
  18. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    @jwt: i'd have to disagree on that, since the danger comes from increasing the angle, ie bringing the knees closer together, and one of the most important points of a good kiba dachi is the knee alignment, which actually decreases that angle; doing a proper kiba, you'd be in more danger of becoming bow legged than knock-knee'd. shiko, on the other hand, can be extremely harmful if you let your knees drop, because you have your whole weight falling on your knee joints with no support underneath them, unlike hangetsu dachi, in which, to put pressure on your knees like that (i just tried it), you'd have to lift your sokuto off the ground (which isn't only wrong in itself, but also wrong in the context of the kata, since it means you're pulling with the outside of your calves instead of using tension of the whole leg).
     
  19. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Fair point Fish.

    Looking again at the position I can see that over time I've actually substituted Fudo Dachi for Hangetsu Dachi - partly because the biggest difference between them is the type of muscle tension. I don't find Hangetsu Dachi's tension at all useful.

    However, looking at Mike's q angle diagram, you can see that the rotation forced by having parallel feet in kiba dachi, creates a huge q angle in the other direction, whereas shiko dachi does not. That is why you can drop to a squat in shiko dachi with no discomfort, whereas you can feel immediate tension across the knee joint if you try to do the same by deepening your Kiba. Now although this is an angle in the other direction - it is still tension at a counter direction to the angle the joint is supposed to bend - and thus dangerous. It is essentially the equivalent of an inside to out Koto Gaeshi on the knee instead of the wrist.
     
  20. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    i see what you mean. in my opinion this depends on the height/width ratio of your kiba. a horse stance, whether a karate kiba, a kung fu ma bu or however they call it in tkd and tsd, is designed not to "squat" or deepen artificially (unlike in modern wushu), but more to let your weight "fall" into the position, and using the contraction of your tensor fasciae latae to stabilize the "drop" of the knee (done correctly, both shiko and kiba should form more or less the same shape if viewed from the front), hence, when you need to go lower, you widen the stance and stick the pelvis back a bit (but not as much as in shiko dachi, just enough to stop stressing your joints, while the leg position and knee alignment (and by extension, the q angle) remain roughly the same, only more open at the hip joint and with the feet turned in more to remain fully in contact with the ground.
     

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