N.B. This is a thread on the Kung Fu forum, and not a General Discussion! I was just wondering what fellow Kung Fu practitioners thought about the use of different hand weapons and shapes. Upper fist/Lower fist. Crane techniques with the back of the wrist. Tiger Claw, Eagle Claw, Leapords Paw, Pheonix Eye etc. Are these too intricate to be used reflexively in real life, or of core importance to using the CMA in Self Defence?
I'm not sure what you mean by "upper fist/lower fist" but the rest of the "shapes" you mentioned, I've seen used to very good effect by various people. I think that, just like any other tool, their effectiveness in application will depend on how much they've been drilled and pressure tested. How ingrained they are in the body. Mike
ok i m not a regular KF practioner but i hav used most of these hand shapes effectively... like tiger claw/eagle claw(well i don't know much difference about these but it's sort of a claw) to grab n control my opponent more than once using Qin-Na techs same goes for other hand shapes like pheonix n crane shaped too... hav used it very effectively but that too depends on the practice... my teacher gave us specific directions about hand shapes(regular n non regulars) n conditioning them... so it's not a problem... i think i answered this question. it's not EASY to use but that can be said for normal punch or kick... one need practice. -TkdWarrior-
As a Choi Lee Fut practioner, I have found that the Panther Fist (Charp Choi) is an awesome technique to use in an combat situation, once it has been properly strengthned and conditioned. The shape itself of the technique gives you a couple of inches longer reach, and due to its narrow size it can easly slip into the smallest opening of your opponents guard. Ideal targets are the throat and groin. Another technique that is a personnel favorite is the tiger claw(fu jow), which can be very affective if used properly.
Re: Re: Hand Shapes & their applications. Hi Mike, 1/ By Upper/Lower Fist, I refer to the horizontal or vertical use of the fist, striking either with the 2 knuckles in line or the 3. Anyone unfamiliar with this take a look at your own fist, and the two distinct weapons. The body mechanics in application of these is very different. 2/ This is what is of interest to me. The trouble being that it is practically inpossible to train these weapons against a live opponent, as the handshapes are designed to go to areas which cannot sustain impact. Where you yourself have talked about adapting to the environment, and making use of what lies to hand as a weapon, the CMA see's the body as a weapon which should be able to adapt itself, hence the handshapes. So how can these be pressure tested sufficiently? Chaz, We have a different interpretation of Charp Choi in Lau Gar, where they are referred to as 'drilling' punches, and are primarily Phoenix Eye techniques. The Panther fist you mention, is what I believe we have always referred to as Leapords Paw, again primarily used to the throat (pic in gallery)
Hi Andy, Although I'm not a Kung Fu practitioner I thought I would stick my oar in, as I practice a close relative - Okinawan Karate. I frequently use a vertical fist against non-specific targets. I rarely use a horizontal fist, more likely a three-quarter fist, halfway between vertical and horizontal. Sometimes yes, generally more likely to use the forearm (ulna) though. Not sure precisely what the claws and paws are but I do use phoenix eye fist. Actually I prefer a middle-knuckle single-knuckle fist, but the principle's pretty much the same. I use this a lot, probably more than a standard fist. I think they can be very useful but you need to train and train and train and train them. Middle knuckle fist is pretty much reflexive for me now, phoenix eye less so. I also use the snapping dynamic of the back of the wrist strike' even if I'm actually striking with the back of the forearm rather than the wrist itself. Mike
Re: Re: Hand Shapes & their applications. Hi Mike, yer oar's welcome ere. Eagle Claw is for gripping and ripping. Squeezing PP's (looks like Action Mans Gripping Hands), and twisting a good hold of flesh like 'cow grip'. Tigers Claw more commonly for raking across the face and eyes. Leapords Paw is a fist edge using the second joint of all four fingers and usually targeted to the throat Pheonix Eye to PP's and soft targets etc. The Crane, I'd use as a strike to the solar plexus, filtrum or temple I look at the hand shapes as being different ways of applying a variety of impacts and a variety angles behind those. There are things you can do with a palm heel that you just can't do with a fist. My concern, and the reason for raising the topic, is that the majority of CMA practitioners only train these as part of forms, and without corpses to experiment on, I'm not sure how effectively they can be applied.
I've never trained each one in great detail. Like you mentioned Andy, its hard to know how practical they would be in a fight. When they would be usefull are when you struggling to get off a decent punch such as in a clinch or while grappling. Otherwise I'll stick with my knuckles Suppose it would save us from damaging them though! Whats the hand called when you stretch open the thumb and first finger and use the space in between to strike at targets such as the throat or under the nose??
Re: Re: Re: Hand Shapes & their applications. I figured it would something along these lines. I don't think there are any similar formal hand formations in the Okinawan tradition, but these techniques certainly are. We just don't practice a specific hand formation for these purposes. Yes, I've seen that too. I think that's used in some Okinawan traditions. How about to the acupuncture point called GB20, in the triangular indentation between the base of the skull and the orgin of the sternomastoid and trapezius muscles. It's a good point for a knockout. I see your point. I think you can test some out though, the phoenix eye for example can lightly strike points on the arms and torso, or just use it to dig and rub into points that you'd rather not hit. For example, here's an application I use for the 'sun and moon' salutation posture - where you enclose your right fist with your left open hand. I use it to strike the neck with a right single-knuckle fist, at the same time the left hand grabs the opposite quadrant of the neck and pulls it into the strike. You can do this without striking. Just hold the neck and grind a single-knuckle into it with the other hand. The effect is usually quite dramatic. Obviously you avoid applying pressure to the windpipe. I find this pressing/grinding rather than striking useful in building confidence in my technique, but I agree - there are some things you just can't do in practice for fear of causing serious injury. Mike
Quote PGM "Whats the hand called when you stretch open the thumb and first finger and use the space in between to strike at targets such as the throat or under the nose??" Sounds a little like the dragon hand form although the middle finger is used as well as the index finger. Dragons similar to tiger although you tuck in your little and 3rd finger. When using hand forms is it worth thinking about the animals etc the represent. Should tiger claw be used with ferocity, the crane using lighting pin point accuracy. Just a thought.
And absolutely essential that you make their sounds too Mike, GB20 sounds hard to reach with Crane, though I bet you have a situation in mind which interests me. Pgm, I've not come across this 'open knife hand' strike you mention, thumb is always tucked in to avoid dislocation in any system I've experienced. Indeed the first knuckle or base of the thumb is itself a weapon, be it for striking with, or lower impact grinds and squeezes to delicate areas as Mike has described. Target's I use this on are Carotid, and Floating Rib with a wrapping arm round the back or neck to add pressure.
I'm not good with names, but, I think its called tiger palm And it does seem to be one of the Hsing I techniques, but we do use it a lot. It wouldn't work with the thumb tucked it, because the striking area is the stretched skin between the thrumb and first finger, not the palm of the hand. Its very good for a strike to the throat.
OK, imagine the assailant grabs your lapel firmly with his left hand. Strike his left forearm at the brachioradialis muscle (LI10/L5 area) with your right forearm and move your body around to your right. At the same time bring your left hand towards your right shoulder. Given the reflex that striking the brachioradialis produces this should have positioned you to the assailant's left side with them starting to bend over, knees buckling and head turning to their right. This exposes several possible targets on the left side of their head/neck. If their head has turned quite a way round then GB20 is a possibility. I can think of other examples where TW17 could present itself as an alternative. I'm usually a bit more of a rustic soul though. I know that the back of the wrist can fit quite nicely into GB20, but to be honest I don't really like to aim too specifically for points. I prefer to simply bludgeon the neck with my forearm, that way I'm bound to hit something interesting without having to worry too much about accuracy - it is inherently more dangerous though. Make sense? Mike
I find that the crane strike (back of wrist) is very affective and easy to apply in 'real situations'. I practice a lot of do sow and fung sow, hand technics right now.. and i feel pretty confident i could apply either right now, even though i have only done it for a short amount of time. devin.
Hi OOSS, Not too sure on the romanizations; do sow and fung sow. Could you give us a brief description of each please?
sorry, was away for the weekend. do sow, is the matis hook (holding the thumb and index finger together and letting the other 3 fingers fold down) It's design is to grab your opponent (it looks a little like crane, but you won't strike with it.. that's coming at the same time your grab was fung: is a basic grab (looks a little like tiger) open hand, with the finger and thumb curled in. maybe i can take some pic's with my digi camera .. might be a little easier to convey. devin.
00SS signature "I am here to kick ass and chew bubble gum....and i'm all out of bubble gum " nice one hehe. Kind makes me remember that other that goes like: "You own jack and ****.... and jack left town" If you could post some pics it would be great ):woo:
