At the risk of starting yet another MAP war....:evil: "Haidong Gumdo, The Way of the Sword, is an ancient and noble martial art from Korea . It's purpose is to execute justice with the light of the sword, that is as majestic and brilliant as the morning sunlight on the east sea. Geographically, Korea is in a great location. It's a peninsular nation with ample access to the ocean, as well as being a close neighbor to both China and Japan . Because of its location, nearby countries in ancient times often sought to occupy Korea to gain control of its excellent geographical attributes. Korea also frequently struggled with civil war, as opposing dynasties within the country vied with each other for power. As a result, Korean warriors of old often found themselves fighting off foreign invaders and warriors from rival Korean dynasties. The prevalent state of warfare in Korea gave these Korean warriors the opportunity to practice their sword techniques and find out which techniques neutralized their enemies most efficiently and effectively. One group of warriors--Samurang--who lived in the Koguryo kingdom nearly 2,000 years ago, became particularly skilled at swordsmanship. Their training hall was located on Mt. Baekdu (which rests on the North Korea-China border) and they were led by a master swordsman named Sul Bong, who had great spirituality. Sul Bong not only taught his students the deadliest sword techniques, but also told them to live their lives according to the ideals of Choong (loyalty), Hyo (filial piety), Ye (propriety), Eui (justice), Shin (trust), Ji (knowledge), Duk (generosity) and Che (sound body). The Samurang spread the vision of living each day with righteousness and justice, and under the command of General Uel Ji Moon Duk, fended off 2 million soldiers during the invasion of the Sui Dynasty. They also defeated 600,000 Tang soldiers at the Ahn Shi battle under the command of General Yang Man Choon. Through the centuries, the sword techniques that the Samurang perfected were passed down from warrior to warrior until, in the 1970's, they reached a spiritual wanderer named Jang Baek-San. Jan Baek-San, living on Kwanak Mountain , found an eager and talented student in Mr. Jeong-Ho Kim. He taught Mr. Kim all he knew of Haidong Gumdo, and Mr. Kim has moved on to modernize Haidong Gumdo and establish a worldwide Haidong Gumdo presence. Today, Grandmaster Jeong-Ho Kim is the President of The World Haidong Gumdo Federation , an organization dedicated to spreading the art of Haidong Gumdo throughout the world. Grandmaster Kim has established nearly 500 Haidong Gumdo dojangs in Korea and well over 1,000 schools in 30+ other countries outside of Korea . He continues to spread his vision of the martial arts and conduct seminars; and has received numerous awards, including one given by Bill Clinton, President of the United States , for his great contribution to American society." okay, lets get started: is there any historical fact behind this? they seem to be able to do what few can: trace their beginning to one spot. is it made up? who were the Samurang? is there any proof of them in history? this seems to be an interesting topic. so far, we have these top warriors from each "ancient korean dynasty"...Silla=HwaRang, Kogoryo=Samurang, and Paekchae=Sa Byuing (or Sunbi?) anyway, thought this might get a new mind tingler thread started!
I don't know much about the art, but it seems that its history is controversial at best; a lot of talk on the Internet these days seems to suggest that the art was started in the 1970s and a history was "invented" for it to give it more appeal. The "samurang" seem to be a pretty dodgy idea as well, and I think I remember reading somewhere that the global Haidong Gumdo federation has put a trademark on the word...if that's not a little fishy, I dunno what is...
the association itself was founded in the 70's. apprently the art goes WAY back, if you believe what they say. and trust me, the Samurang wouldn't be the first ancient warrior group that has been trademarked. just look at Hwa Rang Do: they have a tradmark now! thats like trademarking "Green Beret Corp". i'm not sure anyone can legally do that. but, if i open a Hwa Rang Do school (or anything using those words) my butt gets sued. why do you think the history is made up? they seem to be spot on with what/where it comes from...
Like I said, I don't know much about it. They may be spot on and know everything about their history because they invented it all. I don't think you can legally trademark something like "Green Beret", but if it was the name of a fictional character (like "samurang") then it would be easier to do...
Korean link about it http://www.truema.com/zboard.php?id=bbs kendo world thread about it and its lost court cases about history: http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php/10745-Put-out-candle-flame-with-bokken/page5 and a wiki overview: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haidong_Gumdo#Legal_controversy Interesting bullshido thread too http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=66447&page=6 All in all its a recreataion.
I only skimmed your post Hyeongsa, but as I recall a legal battle not so long ago between two Haidong/Haedong Gumdo/Kumdo organizations brought to light that it was not an ancient art, but actually founded by two students of Seon Master Chang Sik Kim, who is the founder of Shim Gum Do. Shim Gum Do is not an ancient art either...It is a Zen in action art (moving meditation), that was founded in the 70's. Zen Master Kim is actually currently residing in Boston at his temple Shim Gwang Sa, where he continually teaches his art.
Are you kidding me?! "Samurang" sounds as if the HDGD folk were gonna stipulate that the SAMURAI of Japan were somehow derived from the samurang. I've heard similar garbage stating that the word "INJA" (supposedly korean in origin) is the impetus for the japanese ninja, and that the "stealth warriors" actually originated in Korea. Puh-lease!
Hwa Rang Do (the way it was explained/taught) is suppose to be from the ancient Hwa Rang Do military unit, passed down from person to person. supposedly, HRD is suppose to be real. however, it doesn't matter: they TM the name, so even if someone TRULY was Hwa Rang Do, they couldnt' open up a school with that logo, which sucks majorly. Sa Mu Rang i believe is suppose to mean something along the lines of "Enlightened Martial Manhood" or something and no, they claim no connection to the Samurai. they even say the Japanese sword inspired the Korean curve design, but with slight differences in use and construction. but with their historical pin point accuracy, its something that other arts don't seem to be able to do.
Hyeongsa, I really appreciate your enthusiasm, I wish more people had it. But honestly, if MAP had a "No Thank You" button, I'd have to use it for post #9. Just for the record, it is pretty widely understood that the Hwa Rang Do folks take on history is revisionist to the max. They claim something like a 58 generation lineage straight back to the Hwa Rang corps...I'm not going to say that its not possible....BUT! With all of that in mind, I have always been particularly impressed with the skill level of DJN Lee Joo Bang, and to a slightly lesser extent, his son Taejoon. As for the Samurang, it is an obvious ploy to try and elevate Korean history over that of the Japanese. I can't say I do not understand the contempt the Korean people have for the Japanese over the eradication of their ACTUAL cultural heritage. However, that does not change the fact that the extreme nationalistic, shall we say - interpretation, of history is false. I believe that the whole Samurang thing was actually referenced in the court case I mentioned above as being a fabrication. However, that has not prevented the HDGD folks from still propagating it as fact Again, with all of this in mind, I love HDGD! It has evolved into its own unique art form
lmao like i said: have to start another war! just seeing people view points on this. honestly, i dont' care: wonderful art, wonderful skill, cool "history". but it just seems strange they'd go through all that work just to be caught in a lie that easy. lol know what i mean? and speaking of... how do Hwa Rang Do get away with trademarking the name if it is a proven fact Joo Bang Lee is a liar? i can open my own HRD school if i want to and can't get sued, right? it seems strange is all. but, open thread and i dont' care where it leads. just trying to get peoples various view points on the matter.
Same could be said for KSW, I suppose. :dunno: :thinking: And for all those dyslexic MAPers out there... = and =
Hehehe! I'm in no way, shape, or form trying to start 'another war'. I believe I kept the tone of my post very respectful, albeit opinionated. That IS what a forum is for, and indeed what you are looking for, per your own words, no? It does perhaps seem strange to you, but it is a story that I am not unfamiliar with, especially WRT modern KMA history. For instance, the Moo Duk Kwan (Tang Soo Do) originally taught that the Pyong Ahn hyung were 'brought back from China' by Hwang Kee DJN, however anyone well versed in Japanese martial arts would immediately recognize that Pyong Ahn is merely the Korean rendition of the Heian/Pinan form set. But the anti-Japanese hatred was soooooo strong amongst those first generation master of 'hyundae mudo' that any connection to Japanese martial arts was covered up, or at least roughly swept under the carpet. Case in point, look at the various Yudo groups that still claim that the arts roots are steeped in ancient Korean martial arts history...Just in case you didn't know, Yudo is of course the Korean pronunciation of Judo. Lee Joo Bang has also claimed openly, many times, that he and his brother Lee Joo Sang received 8th dans from Choi Yong Sul...However, I bet you would be hard pressed to find any such record in the record books of DJN Choi. Lastly, a trademark does not mean much. The USPTO is not going to research the claims of LJB being a 58th generation inheritor of some ancient warrior lineage. I could submit an application for trademark of the words "Puyo Mu Sool" if I wanted, and all the while then claim that my teacher was the sole heir to a lineage of ancient Korean tribal martial arts, and that I was his one and only prodigy student, becoming the next Grand Master heir. I think I'd also set out, while I'm at it, that my 'teacher' lived in a box under an over pass as a spiritual hermit, and thus not many even knew he existed. Further more, did I mention that early proponents of my art were responsible for the foundation of Daito Ryu Aiki Ju Jujutsu? The USPTO would largely not be worried with any of this, nor would they be likely to research it. They are worried about rather I am infringing on the trade rights of anyone else in applying for TM. If I'm the first to use Puyo Mu Sool in trade here in the US....Guess what, I'm good! Furthermore, Hyeongsa, I highly suggest that you read some of the available current research that has been done into the Hwa Rang, by Korean scholars, even. It appears as though the stories we have all been fed about them, may have been slightly over exaggerated... [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pf29DCji4T8"]YouTube[/ame] I'd have to agree KJN. I would for sure categorize Kuk Sool as a unique martial art that has grown into its own. To me, it is a very valid Korean martial tradition now, regardless of its history. Thanks for translating me MAP-unrecognized emoticons, BTW lol
I have first hand experience of the marketting and "birth" of HGD. I watched GM Chun Sik Kim's nephew suddenly come out with this style, and that he was a master in it. It spread like wild fire because the Tang Soo Do organizations wanted something new and shiny to offer. The Ninja Turtles had come and gone, just as had the Power Rangers, and every other fad. But, everyone wants to learn the Sword. Pretty soon, there were HGD black belts and masters sprinkled all over the country. I am skeptical because I haev know these people for more than 2 decades, and they never used swords or worked with weapons. It may be an ancient art, I don't have the right to say it isn't. But I can say the artists offering it in the Eastern United States are not life long students, and there is truly not more than 20 years history there at best.
Actually, Hwang Kee states clearly on page 372 of his "Tang Soo Do (Soo Bahk Do) book published in 1978 the following: 1. Name of form: Pyung Ahn Cho Dan Hyung 2. Introduction to form: Originally this form was called "Jae-Nam". Approximately 100 years ago an Okinawan master, Mr. Idos, reorganized the Jae Nam form into a form closely resembling the present Pyong Ahn forms ... 3. Name of creator: The present Pyong Ahn form does not differ significantly from the form developed by Mr. Idos ... Mr. Idos can be considered the creator of the Pyong Ahn form as he was the first to reorganize the Jae-Namd form. 4. Date of creation: Approximately 1870 5. Place of creation: Hwa Nam area of China. Clearly, Hwang Kee is citing an Okinawan master as the founder of this form. As to where he learned the form, that is not cited. However, his learning it in china would not detract from the fact that he cites it as a form developed by Mr. Idos; an Okinawan.
I'm not disagreeing with that. Whether Mr. Idos is Anko Itosu who taught Gichin Funakoshi of Shotokan is likely resulting from a pronunciation issue of Idos vs Itosu. But, Mr. Idos is the name by which Hwang Kee cites the form being created. My point is that Hwang Kee never claimed the Pyong Ahn forms, in their present formation (1978), were anything other than Okinawan. So, he was not trying to avoid Japanese linkage. The stories he told myself and other black belts in person years ago about his early years have always been truthful in that nobody has showed it to be otherwise. He was an honorable man and gave credit where credit was due.
Without a doubt Mr. Idos is Yasutsune Itosu. This is a Koreanized Romanized rendition of an Okinawan surname. ...and yes, the entire stance of the Moo Duk Kwan at one time, straight from the mouth of KJN H.C. Hwang was that "my father bring these forms back with him from China". You've obviously been around TSD for a long time, but if your interested I can point you to some people who were in it (MDK) from the beginning that would tell you their first hand accounts. I am NOT at all trying to discredit Hwang Kee DJN. He was an AMAZING martial artist, that to this day, probably was more prolific than any other KMA master wrt teaching and spreading his art. He was much more up front than most KMA masters ever are.
I have a history that includes this art, but I no longer teach this art. I moved on to other things since those days.
Let's not forget that Okinawa/Ryukyu was its own sovereign nation for most of its history and due to lying on the outer rim of the East China Sea, was extremely important to trade in the orient. Due to its relatively small size, it was dwarfed by neighboring kingdoms/empires and had tributary relationships with BOTH China & Japan. Pretty smart (and lucky) of Hwang Kee to trace the origins of karate back to its roots where he could play up the CHINESE influence more than that of Japan's, especially considering the hatred Koreans held for all things Japanese at the time. Such rampant nationalistic pride was/is common amongst so many of the founders of current KMA, that revisionist histories are an *expected* byproduct that needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Let's just get over it, shall we?
