I saw this really cool video of various famous CMA masters meeting in the early 80s. Among them are Sun Lutang's daughter, Sun Jian Yun and Liang-style Bagua master Li Ziming. The one that most caught my eye most, however, was the bald guy--a Shaolin master named Hai Deng. Apparently he was asked to return to the temple in the 80's to help rebuild but left because of disgust with the party's agenda to turn Shaolin into a tourist attraction. He's dead now, unfortunately, but I think that little push he gives in the video should be enough to convince anyone that real Shaolin is not "external." If anyone has any more info. about his life, style or any surviving students I'd love to hear. http://media.putfile.com/Old-masters
Haha, I thought about that after watching a second or third time and realizing they were all bald! I mean the totally bald (shaved head) guy with no beard wearing a bluish-grey coat. The one who pushes the other guy into next county at the end of the vid. Oh, and unfortunately, I don't have the original video. I didn't upload it, I'm just linking to someone else's cool video. (Is that bad internet etiquette, I wonder )
o.o Does this mean the "Fighting Shaolin Monks" currently at the Temple in Henan aren't the real deal? Cuz I met some at the Temple of Heaven training with an old guy an Aussi who'd moved there to train (Beijing) called "Mister Chen" and got a dose of Qin Na from Mister and the Monks for a lucky half-hour before my tourbus had to leave. It was all, I show 'em something from my karate and told 'em how I wanted to learn kung fu/taiji and Mister Chen went about taking some of my kata movements and converting them. Everyone there seemed pretty real (at least the armbars and jointlocks did x.x) Anyhoo, if the Monks aren't real does this mean those training in the Wudang Mts are fakes too??? I know that Wushu dudes are different than traditional kung fu and I've seen the Fighting Monks do a lot of wushu-esque things but then the Qin Na couldn't have been just for show, neh? I just want to be sure before if I accept that the monks who (plus TMNT) led me to martial ats in the first place. :/
Oh, another little bubble of happy ignorance is sadly burst. Yes, the "monks" at Shaolin now and the "priests" at Mt. Wudang are nothing more than wushu performers in costumes. That doesn't mean they're wusses. Wushu may be a simplified, performance-oriented combination of Kung-fu and Beijing Opera, but it's still based on Kung Fu and therefore still has lots of fighting applications (like the armbar you felt). It just lacks the depth and power of traditional CMA (also, the body mechanics, philosophy, internal aspects, power generation and much more get thrown out the window in favor of uselessly pretty flying kicks landing in splits, etc.) The Shaolin temple was burned down in 1928 and only rebuilt in the late 80s in response to the popularity of a Jet Li movie. The powers that be wanted a tourist attraction and the fastest way to set one up was to rebuild the temple, get a bunch of talented youngsters from the Wushu program (like Jet Li himself once was), dress them up as monks and send them out there to perform for the tourists. Therefore, if you want real Shaolin Kungfu, it should be coming from someone who studied there before 1928, or else someone who can trace their lineage to such a person. I think the monk shown in the movie, Hai Deng, may be one such person. The good news is that the people at Shaolin and Wudang are apparently doing their best now to research the original, traditional arts, much of which they have to get from masters in Taiwan, Hong Kong and elsewhere that many masters fled before the Communist takeover. So there's hope that these two famous centers of CMA study may once again become real centers for learning authentic, traditional CMA, but those there now are still primarily Wushu performers in costumes, put there for the benefit of the tourists.
Now, what about the spiritual training at Shaolin? We associate it with (and criticize it for, it seems) the martial training therein, but it IS still a Buddhist temple. Does anyone have any actual knowledge (as much as I love wild, groundless speculation) about the actual Buddhism studied at Shaolin?
I'm fairly certain that some of the monks do study Chan (Zen) Buddhism, as was the tradition at Shaolin, but they also have what they call the "secular disciples," which are basically performers there for the benefit of the tourists.
Hi there! Questions for Onyomi.... Im a tourist if I go there to learn? Wosh, this has got to be a joke! Of course, I would be a tourist there.... I have not been to China yet, though I know there are real decendants there of Shaolin & also remnants of their fighting arts recorded in manuals. If many of them fled the temple because of destruction from war, wouldn't they continue teaching Shaolin kung fu in secret over the lost generations in the other places than the temple????
I didn't say traditional Shaolin Kung Fu is extinct. It's just rare and more to be found in Taiwan and Hong Kong than mainland. Shaolin Kung Fu is basically a variety of Northern Longfist styles, so the best way to find something close to what the Shaolin monks practiced is to practice traditional Longfist, like that brought to Taiwan by Han Qing Tang. My Shifu studied with a couple of his Han Qing Tang's senior Longfist students and also learned a set of qigong called Bodhidharma's Tendon Changing Classic (Yijin-jing) from his Praying Mantis teacher. The Yijinjing is said to come from Shaolin via Wang Lang, the founder of Praying Mantis who studied there. It does seem like some of the monks or their students must still be around mainland teaching quietly somewhere, but I don't think many of them are at the actual temple right now. They've tried to get people like Hai Deng to come back, but they still seem to be teaching the students New Wushu, which is puzzling. If they want to restore Shaolin to doing real CMA they need to start teaching the students there the traditional forms which they now have access to. Maybe they already are behind closed doors. I'm just going by the performances I've seen of the modern Shaolin monks like that awful "Wheel of Life" show--100% New Wushu. If you go there to study then you will be a student--but a student of New Wushu, not authentic CMA.
I totally agree I believe some shaolin monks at the tourist shaolin temple will study Chan Buddhism but this cannot be the case for the performers that we see in the shows & competitions as this would go against buddhist monk practices of not feeding the ego (although good performers they are in their own right). Certainly competitions and showmanship involves feeding the ego in some form even if you do not intend to do so. Just a thought.
responds to Onyomi answers Thank you for replying about that.... I guess I would like to see the Temple as a tourist but I dont have the money to travel. Also, I would like to learn Mandarin before I even get on the plane, so I do not get lost from lack of understanding the culture. I have also learned a small deal of southern mantis fist, (not an entire mantis form) though I would rather learn from a sifu who teaches traditional northern system... they are difficult to find here. I could learn southern style here....
Ouch... my bubble. What can I do now but find a Taiwanese Emigre-Monk lineage, neh? Spiritually, yar there's a dorm called "Buddhadharma Hall" where tons of red-windbreaker clad seculars live and train, but when I went there I wasn't able to see part of the temple because it was closed off for prayer service (it was cool, we could hear the chanting, but prayer is prayer and not martial arts) So I think the bald-heads still are Chan Buddhists at least. Thanks for the insight. It's better to know the truth than believe in a lie, neh? Oh, and if you wanna visit China for cheap and learn the lingo at the smae time there's tourist groups who'll get you lessons and it's not too much money (and room / food all paid for) I did that and it was great, we stayed at the Beijing Academy Dorm for Foreign Students. THe place I used was Hope Education Foundation. Dunno if it has a website but Boston has a lil' store-front office.
well... the push would certainly be impressive were it real. I'm not saying it isn't, i'm just saying that I for one cannot tell. I hate it when the pushee kinda runs backward for a little while because it might well be what's really happening and it might be staged. Why don't people ever consider my feelings when they're being thrown around?
TMNT is awesome and so are you. Ah, ninjitsu at it finest. the movies stopped being good after Shredder died though...
A fellow Turtle Fan! I agree, except that there's a few scenes if cut out from the actual move were great in TMNT III. When asked my fav weapon? Well, that's easy! It's Combat Coldcuts!!! Kawabunga, Dude! [And more on topic, At least they're tryin' to go back to the true stuff, neh? One day we may all live to see the Two Temples of Chinese Martial Arts return to their former deserved glory and skill, even if the Shaolin Qin Na is eerily similar to Chen Taiji ]
