Haedong or Kumdo?

Discussion in 'Weapons' started by Zatoichi1, Dec 25, 2010.

  1. antilie

    antilie Valued Member

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKIfo3_zgZ0&feature=related"]YouTube - 殺陣アクションクラブ 2009 (Tate Action Club 2009)[/ame]
  2. Hyeongsa

    Hyeongsa The Duelist

    I liked the nunchuck video and the Haidong Gumdo video. The sword sparring done by the Samurai (not familiar with Japanese terms on swordsmanship, sorry) was...very basic. But, there is one really important thing to remember: topography. The land. Chinese sword, Korean sword, and Japanese sword are all different because of the way their nations are set up:
    Chinese martial arts has alot of retreating steps, running in circles, and big motions. China is massive so the strategic move to retreat is almost always an option.

    Japan is a collection of islands so the chance to retreat is rarely an option, thus the straight foreward and tight moving sword work/Karate of Japan. You don't see Japanese Karate Masters running around like those of Wushu.

    If you watch Korean sword work, you'll see bigger motions than what the Japanese use but smaller motion that that of China. They had the option to retreat to the mainland but if they were boxed in going striaght and hard, much like Karate, was there.

    Anyway, that is one way I precieve the different sword works. It also depends greatly on your taste. I don't like Chinese or Japanese sword work but I'm more drawn to the way Koreans weild the sword. However, that does not mean its better or worse...just different.

    By the way...the last video posted by Antille looked kind of flashy like Haidong Gumdo.
  3. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member


    That wasn't sparring it was Seiho.

    If you knew what you were looking at you would appreciate that a profound understanding of distance and timing was being demonstrated.

    There's nothing flash about that particular style of kenjutsu, it is utterly pragmatic and direct. It is also trained with an intensisity and level of pressure that you can't appreciate by looking at embu (demo). Make a mistake in training and you can get a crushed skull.

    Technically direct and uncomplicated waza but far from basic in application, that's part of the beauty of Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu.

    It wasn't sparring, wasn't supposed to look like it and isn't used for the same purpose.

    The clips you have shown tend to demonstrate some fundamental errors in application, errors that aren't anything to do with nation etc, flaws in principles that are universal.

    The reason your clip contained the movement it did was because the intent behind the techniques were that of show and not function.

    Combative systems often share principles and you will frequently see similarities between them regardles of style or country of origin. Your clip was lacking in this.

    Sorry but the Haidong Gumdo clip just look awful and it was obvious that it's intent was far removed from being combatively applicable.

    Also you might want to read up on Kenjutsu and its development, you seem a little misguided.
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2011
  4. antilie

    antilie Valued Member

    The video which I attached is not martial arts.

    It is the video of the performance school.
    It is written for the telop that a graduate of JAC which Sonny Chiba of the Hollywood actor founded founded it.

    Therefore I call HaedonGumdo TATE.
  5. Hyeongsa

    Hyeongsa The Duelist

    DEAN: I understand completely! There is a big difference between demo and technique: a real technique lasts 3 seconds and a demo makes audiences cheer. Trust me, I am no child and I understand the difference. But there is a different flair to both styles! There CAN be differences and it can still be a good martial art; to me the techniques looked simple and direct (deffinitely not a bad thing, I think we all strive to be like that) and I'm sure to you it was beautiful; its just not doing it for me though since I don't study a Japanese martial arts.

    I seriously doubt you can judge an entire martial art based on one demo (the purpose for demos usually being to get the interest up in that particular art); for example, there is this funny demo that a father and son team do in our art. There's no way to describe it, it's just cute. But as an outsider, I can't judge the entire art based on just this one demo. Just the way I based that entire art of Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu on that one video. It just wouldn't be fair, don't you think? Until I get on the floor with those practiconers, I won't be able to make a statement over that video accurately, don't you think?

    On a side note, have you ever trained in Haidong Gumdo or are you basing your statements soley off that video or demos you have seen? Please understand I am not seeking any form of confrotation! I don't actively train in either art so your thoughts on it doesn't affect me either way, just wondering! ^.^

    I have trained a little in Haidong Gumdo (no Dahn rank) and trust me, what is done in demo is far different on what is done for application on a real technique. You should also keep in mind that there are also different STYLES of Haidong Gumdo. Just like the video Anitlle posted; for a moment, with the way they acted it looked like an actual Japanese sword art; come to find out its a performance school (much like XMA).
  6. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    You'll note all of my comments have been about the clips you posted.

    Like I said they show some fundamental flaws in the movement and approach, I don't need to train in the art if you say the art is accurately represented in those clips.

    Those clips are awful, it's just movie-fu type nonsense and I've listed why.

    Your comments about Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu were about the clip you saw, you said it looked basic which was an inacurrate evaluation. Your reasoning was just that it wasn't flashy enough for you. My comments have, I hope, had some technical elements to them.

    I'm not being funny but you've not been able to debate any technical points as such.

    Take some of Bruce's comments as an example. One one clip he mentioned that what was being done was one handed techniques using a two handed weapon and gave reasons why some of it looked odd.

    Why would a demo be drastically different, on a fundamental level, to the actual art?

    Ok you might have flashy bits but those haven't been the main points I've made. The demo you posted showed poor control, poor cutting technique and poor power generation.

    Those things should be ingrained in the student on a core level, these aren't things that change because you are putting on a show.

    Faults like that exist either because of poor teaching or a flawed system.
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2011
  7. ScottUK

    ScottUK More human than human...

    That's me told then. :rolleyes:
  8. antilie

    antilie Valued Member

    This is a company of the stunt man.
    This company specialized in tate, and I called it a school because he accepted the general person.

    The company which is the most famous in Japan is "Ono Kenyukai".
    As for them, they became more famous than the stunt by the samurai movie by a performance in Kamenrider of 1970's.

    A digression.
    The star actor who played Kamenrider did a motorcycle stunt by oneself first.
    (He was a common dramatic actor)Current he is a master of Iai.
    Of course he registers himself with the actor association of Hollywood.

    The performance of the Japanese sword is really based on the movement of Japanese old martial arts.

    For example, it becomes the lie if Yagyu does not use Sinnkageryu in a picture.
    Therefore the actor takes a lesson of Yagyu.
    If Isami Kondo does not use Tennenrisinryu, it becomes the lie.
    However, I take in showy movement in it to appeal to a spectator by the movie.

    In addition, a Japanese famous actor has a progeny of Yagyu.
    Of course he is initiated into it by a grandfather. (He inherits an education policy of Yagyu from the front to a grandchild for 400 years)

    It was a beginning that it was a movie to have become famous, and Kumudo was used in Korea.
    Therefore there is movement of showy Tate needlessly.
    The person who devised kumudo is I have not done martial arts person.
    It is the founder of kumudo and haedongkumudo to have done materialization of it as Shinkumudo.

    And both made the false history by a movie after kumudo became famous in Korea. They brought an action against a fellow as fraud each other to the court of law in the origin.
    And the Korean court of law sentenced both to conviction.

    The Korea government still consents tacitly to their appealing to you for the false history.
    For the Korea government, it is important only that Korea is praised from the world.

    Therefore it was unreasonable, and the taekwondo submitted the quantity of the contestant to IOC, too.
    Therefore the taekwondo is excluded by OLYMPIC.
    hapkido was expelled from association of Korea sports this year.
    The cause seems to be because I do only accusation between the groups of them.
  9. hkdstl

    hkdstl Banned Banned

    Wow antilie,

    you sure have a lot to say. most of it is ridiculous but a lot to say none the less. I am like some of the others.....I would like to see proof of this dvd set or book from the korean govt. or whatever it is you say you have. plus, i gotta see the proof of where choi threatened eushiba on and on yada yada. plus hapkido didnt base that it was aikido man, the hanja and hangul are the same yes.......but choi called what became hapkido, yusul or yawara is the korean jujutsu man. So please, if you cant prove this book/dvd or anything substantial according to your claims then ya know.....just be quiet.
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2011
  10. klaasb

    klaasb ....

    Not 100% sure what Antilie wants to say or what is point is, but ...

    1. Haedong Gumdo is not representative for ALL Korean sword arts.

    2. HDGD is a fairly new style, founded by a person who meditated on it and than started his sword art. All the history stuff was later added. There is been a trial about this in Korea, because of arguments between grandmaster (Bruce probably knows the finer details) in which they admitted that HDGD was a modern creation.

    3. Ordinary gumdo in Korea is pretty much Japanese kendo introduced during the Japanese occupation. They follow the same rules, same techniques and compete in the same international tournaments.

    4. Some KSA masters like to use cutting drills for fun and as a workout but it's never used in performances for it's really deceiving. The way haedong gumdo and muye24ki cultivated this as a climax of their performance (first dancing around with the sword and at the last moment cutting all sorts of dummies), made the ignorant audience believe that it's probably something very difficult, which is deceiving. The reason why they use cutting is to conceal their lacking of true swordsmanship skills.
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2011
  11. antilie

    antilie Valued Member

    Please watch the kumudo video which I put.

    kumudo excludes a rule of kendo by the beginning of the video.

    They adopt 朝鮮勢法for a kumudo examination in reality basically even if they recognize Korean Kumdo Association as kendo in the origin of Kumudo.

    As for the origin of kendo, Korean Kumdo Association insists that it is Korea basically.
  12. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Hi, Klaas:

    Since we have discussed this off and on over on HAPKIDO FORUM a few times this may sound a bit lame repeating it here. All the same I believe the issue is important to raise....and I will use the Japanese sword work to make my point.

    Over the years, when I have observed practitioners of Japanese arts discuss their practices---- even among practitioners of different arts or styles--- there seems to be some technical understanding of what they are doing and why. In this way, a person who practices one tradition can still reference aspects such as "focus", "distance", "speed" etc. and be understood and appreciated by their opposite number. I don't get that among Korean practices, and certainly not among Korean swordsmen. I will say that, tactically, Korean KUMDO varies from Japanese KENDO and I am well-taken with the more measured Korean approach. But thats more of an opinion than anything else. However, when it comes to Japanese KEN-JUTSU or BATTO-JUTSU (aka: "Iaido") the practitioners of Japan seem to have a greater appreciation of the what makes a particular execution technically superior to another. I just don't see this sort of technical insight given its fair measure among the Koreans.

    Having said all of that, its worth mentioning that in the area of validation cutting, I have been hearing increased awareness of, and sensitivity to, assessing the results as they may reveal deficits in performance. This is a great improvement over simply cutting something in two to impress an audience. However, there is a whole hierachy of materials, cuts, directions and other variables that need to be structured into the individual's practice to produce a comprehensive development of skills. IMHO.

    Best Wishes,

  13. rino1901

    rino1901 Valued Member

    "Therefore it was unreasonable, and the taekwondo submitted the quantity of the contestant to IOC, too.
    Therefore the taekwondo is excluded by OLYMPIC.
    hapkido was expelled from association of Korea sports this year.
    The cause seems to be because I do only accusation between the groups of them."

    When was this? what year ws this? Hapkido has never been expelled from KSA!
    You post alot of stuff however, you never post facts! where is your proof of anything you've said on this forum?

    where are these dvd's?
    whats the dvd's names?
    where is this book?
    whats the books name?

    the books and dvd's are in korean I suspect so how do you know whzt it says?
    how would you even get ahold of those dvd's?
  14. hkdstl

    hkdstl Banned Banned

    rino go to facebook man
  15. OwlMAtt

    OwlMAtt Armed and Scrupulous

    Antilie is being a jerk, and he appears misinformed, but he is spot on in his indictment of the Korean government.

    The Korean government is using the martial arts to push outright lies on the world for the sake of making Korea look good diplomatically. It's despicable and it goes against everything the martial way stands for. Especially unforgivable are the lies that are being drilled into the heads of children all over the world who are just trying to have some fun with taekwondo.

    I myself manage to make peace with WTF/Kukkiwon style taekwondo by training under a USA Taekwondo instructor who has learned USAT's much more realistic take on taekwondo history. I'm not sure I could stomach the dishonesty anywhere else.
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2011
  16. antilie

    antilie Valued Member

  17. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    And whether we like it or not, O, what you just described is a HUGE part of the cross we have to carry IF we want to pursue KMA in any sort of intelligent manner. For myself, I am VERY sorry for how this sounds, but I have found that much of the upgrading of Korean practices often has to be done INSPITE OF the Korean establishment. Fact is that they are not very good at intelligently upgrading their own practices--BUT they also don't want ANYBODY ELSE doing it either.

    Not a very long time ago I had a chance to connect with one of the leading practitioners of SIB PAL KI --- a highly educated and passionate advocate for traditional Korean MA. He was just fine with me getting involved in his effort as long as I was willing to subsume my own efforts under his approach. Thats another big drawback to KMA: everybody wants to be a chief and nobody wants to be an indian. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

  18. rino1901

    rino1901 Valued Member


    I live in korea and check the news regularly. I speak korean pretty well. You need to tread carefully when ready japanese liturature! the japanese feel themselve the supiorior race.

    thank you for finally posting your source but I would have heard or these dvd's and this book. I would be very suprised if I hadn't.

    Please give me the name of this book! I will go get it read it and tell you my take!
  19. rino1901

    rino1901 Valued Member

    I hope this isnt what you meant by Hapkido was kicked out of KSA!

    There is Hapkido and there is Aikido in korea do not mistake them as the same organization.

    This is what you posted and i translated it from the korean part of the page

    11 - Yonhap News SEOUL Korea Sports Council held a board meeting on November 11 decision to revoke certification body for authorization Korean Confederation of Aikido. After the founding meeting in 1920, revoked the approval of an affiliated organization of the first.

    The January 2008 meeting, sports organizations membership provisions, "a group 1 event" as a certification body approved by the Korean Confederation of Aikido in terms of defending. But now, corporate groups are mushrooming Aikido 27, and in constant trouble and complaint charges. By this decision, Members of affiliated organizations are 55 positive events, three events associate member organizations, 11 organizations were authorized event.
  20. antilie

    antilie Valued Member

    Why, you are going back to the past is to deny what happened today?

    You, on DVD or what is requesting a name to me?

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