Ground fighting in the Takamatsuden

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Please reality, Jun 27, 2014.

  1. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    I can see why you stay anonymous ;)
     
  2. ToddSchweinhart

    ToddSchweinhart Valued Member

    PR I think you are right....people should take it seriously. I once heard Manaka sensei say he thought it was better not to train at all and wait for the right teacher than to train with someone while waiting on the right teacher. Interesting.

    But if someone does do more research on the buj as a whole they may not choose to train with anyone in it merely based upon the overwhelming of rank inflation and silliness often attributed. In addition, if the ryuha licensing is one of the only ways to judge legitimacy it doesn't help much as many wouldn't discuss it if they had it, some even told not to. So back to just doing google searches on all the "shihan" to study under.

    Best,
    Todd Schweinhart
     
  3. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    That's exactly what I would've done. In fact, that was why I moved to Japan, and had I not met my teacher here, I would probably be doing another art right now.
     
  4. Crucio

    Crucio Valued Member

    Hi!

    I started training a few years ago. Before i started training, i spent a good few months to a year, doing nothing but reading and trying to understand what this ninjutsu is about. Soon enough i came to understand that in spite of it being under an organization format, like gendai budo, it is in fact a collection of classical Japanese martial schools.

    From here on, my little study focused on the classical Japanese martial arts. What are they? How do they differ from sport and gendai arts? By answering these questions it became evident that they can not be judged by the same criteria as the modern arts. For one, the ranking system (dan-kyu) is not a criteria for competence. So then what is? Lineage! Who is the teachers teacher and what sort of relationship do they have? Are they focused on "feelings" or martial effectiveness? Are they mimicking what Soke does at class or are they going through the process that Soke originally went through?

    I'm lucky enough to be in a group that fallows Ishizuka sensei and Kacem Zoughari. I have come to know of people, very highly ranked, that dislike training at Ishizuka dojo because people there do not "play along" and because it's to tough.

    It is now my belief that if one is interested enough to practice a classical art, there are enough writings in english that can give a decent understanding of what to look for. Also, that if one wants martial effectiveness, one can find it. It comes at a cost though! It is very difficult to create a good structure; it is ego shattering to try techniques that you thought you knew only to be proven wrong. It takes an enormous amount of correct training, repetition, correction and more repetition to get the "basics" to a decent level.

    I think a lot of people are not interested in that, but instead want a more laid back type of training. Want to get to the "interesting" stuff ASAP and are not ready to devote as much time and energy to really do what it takes to learn a classical art (or a sport for that matter) so they are happy in doing whatever they are doing. Some good can still come from that. Some skills, some socializing, a workout, etc.

    Understanding what you are getting in to and finding a good teacher is one of the most important tests for a student IMO. Train with everyone, choose wisely.
     
  5. JibranK

    JibranK Valued Member

    That brings up an important and relevant point. If you google Bujinkan on YouTube the first results will be Carbonaro Sauce, Rob Renner, etc… but also Kacem. The night and day difference between the two sides should be enough to make someone dig deeper.

    That difference is a starting point for the prospective student to explore and figure out what do whether in or outside. (No, I'm not saying Ishizuka sensei is the only 'way'. There's Seno sensei and Kan sensei as well.)
     
  6. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    How can you tell good from bad without prior training though? If I have no idea what it entails the rank is - or SHOULD be - a metric

    Now this is by no means unique to the Bujinkan, and it is actually a low level offendet compared to some, but you cannot simply say " research more" when the info really isnt there
     
  7. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    The ranks are, just not the dan ones.;) There is enough out there about the Bujinkan that I'd be surprised if someone couldn't find anything negative.
     
  8. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    But for everything negative you find two positive ftom within....outside doesnt count because pretty much everyone hates it - bit like JKD in that regard :)
     
  9. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    I met and get to train with my teacher. That is enough for me. Everything else is just a light.
     
  10. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Dan ranks are what regular people associate with meaningful rank thanks to Judo....

    You keep mentioning the other ranks as being more meaningful and what a prospective student should look for. However i tried using the almighty google you keep throwing up in evasion and am having a difficult time finding out who exactly has what ryuha certification...

    Like Arnaud had a MK in throwing techniques. The only other reference i have been able to find is regarding Ishizuka shihan having multiple MK. Other then that, i have only seen snippets of information. No mention of who else has what certification. Only vague mention of Japanese shihan having MK, with again no names.

    So while you would be correct, that it would be best to look for who has what classical rank, that information is not easy to find nor readily accessible.

    Secondarily if Soke wanted this to be a koryu why spread it far and wide? Why only teach 8 people the real art but something totally unrelated to everyone else.

    Something about this whole organization does not make sense.
     
  11. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Hardly an evasion. People have been more than forthcoming sharing information with you personally. There are Quest videos, books, and more that people can use as comparison, internet resources, and on and on. Perhaps a MAP advanced search would show who else has MK and in what. The information is out there, depends on how bad you want it.

    Don't ask me, ask Hatsumi sensei. I don't really know or care why he popularized the arts. I am just glad I get to train in them.

    If we know anything about the ninja, it is that they knew how to gather information, and they didn't have a fraction of the resources we have today. :vanish: Funny that those interested in them don't follow in their footsteps.
     
  12. JibranK

    JibranK Valued Member

    This brings up an important related point. For some reason, many people who want to or do practice TMAs don't put anywhere near as much effort into them as the people they denigrate for practicing "sports" do in their arts. They seem to assume effort is for lesser types and of course as such their training (or even journey to training) is hollow.

    Sometimes people don't even realize they do it.
     
  13. peterc8455

    peterc8455 Valued Member

    That looks like someone trying to mimic Soke (albeit poorly).
     
  14. peterc8455

    peterc8455 Valued Member

    It's because many primarily approach it as an intellectual endeavor instead of a physical one.
     
  15. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I thought about it :D

    I think it is the opposite. For the majority it is just a physical endeavor.

    Whereas athletes and coaches take it to the next level. My old cross-country coach would say it is 90% mental! I think that sums up pretty much the sport side of things. You are enduring through the blood, sweat, and tears in training.
     
  16. peterc8455

    peterc8455 Valued Member

    Not the same thing at all.

    Your mental toughness was a byproduct of hard physical training. That is a lot different than guys sitting around talking about the "idea" of training.
     
  17. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Yup, got it. I was just trying to get clarification of what you meant by "intellectual".

    Intellectual, such as in intellectual pursuit, I think some, like me, associate with taking something physical to the next level. A kind of hunger for knowledge. It just so happens that the basis of transferring that knowledge in martial arts is through hard and sincere training, life experiences, and story telling.

    If something is just physical, there is a disassociation as if you just want to get through it. You could be exercising and thinking about what you are making for dinner... for example.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2015
  18. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member


    Doing an advanced search right now and so far as im only getting information that i stated above. Also some discussion from Chris parker defining Mk.

    You keep saying google it and i have and im not getting specifics. You keep making it seem as if its just click away when its not.

    Not that it matters to most of us in this forum as most will not be able to get prolonged training with a MK.
     
  19. JibranK

    JibranK Valued Member

    I don't know what terms you're searching for that are bringing you so few results. I knew between Kutaki, here, etc that the original shihan, including the late Oguri sensei, and those who left (Muramatsu sensei, Tanemura sensei, Manaka sensei) had menkyo kaiden and it was mentioned as common knowledge.

    Tanemura sensei has a list of his on his website, I think, and you can find similar things discussed on koryu websites.
     
  20. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Wanted to give PR a shout out. Thanks to your pushing i have been finding alot of interesting history information on the web. Some of it relavent to my initial search others not so much. However it is all very interesting stuff and i would not have found it had you not pushed me to do so.

    So despite me having a go(i love stealing English phrases) at you, i thank you. I now have so much reading to do its not funny.

    Maybe the further back i go the more ill understand. Ill admit that im kinda dense it takes me awhile to learn and understand things. Meh ill get their one foot in front of the other.

    Edit to add, im aware that this post is shortly after my last one being combative with PR. It was shortly after that post i found a ton of history and information, hence my next post.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2015

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