Ground fighting in the Takamatsuden

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Please reality, Jun 27, 2014.

  1. JibranK

    JibranK Valued Member

    That's exactly what I meant.
     
  2. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    There is the speed factor in sparring that I feel contributes the most in non-contact sparring building bad habits. For example, anything done at full speed should be built off of intuition/instinct. When you spar full speed but no-contact, this is teaching you to pulling punches even when you didn't intend to.

    Most light contact sparring is done at 50-75% speed and effectively you are slowing down the technique (follow through) even more at contact to prevent excessive penetration. Since you aren't going full speed, you aren't directly transferring the action to instinct. Instead you can concentrate on good technique and fluid movements.

    Light contact is relative. All sparring should feel like light contact, even if it is heavy contact because it is the technique that does the damage and your movements should remain fluid. It is the fact that sparring is done slower that allows the amount of damage to be controlled without building an instinct to pull punches. You can go medium contact at 75% speed the same as light contact at 75% by allowing the technique to penetrate more by not slowing it down as much at the end.

    However, if you went full speed and light contact, it could end up as bad as non-contact... teaching to pull punches. Full speed needs to be closer to medium to heavy contact because you should always be striking through the target OR work with the opponent actually evading like in Aikido.

    Another alternative is sparring combined with pad work.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2015
  3. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    [ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YDL8UB_Noac[/ame]

    so talking of bjkn newaza, heres some of the worst of the worst, its the bjkn uk geki ryu folks
     
  4. JibranK

    JibranK Valued Member

    Haha, did you see the comments?

    "DON'T TALK ABOUT BJJ THIS IS BUJINKAN"

    Only the part of me that laughs at McDojos is always tempered by disgust because there are people who go to these places and come away thinking they can defend themselves. False confidence can be dangerous.

    This guy also claims to be a menkyo kaiden in Daito-ryu, of which he claims to have established his owns line...
     
  5. ToddSchweinhart

    ToddSchweinhart Valued Member

    Fusen,

    Are you saying that you think the techniques in the video aren't effective?

    :)

    I think these types of schools showing this type of movement are actually doing harm to people that don't know any better. I remember a statement of a Japanese teacher that applies "Crappy students need crappy teachers"...although he used some other verbiage. I agree with this to an extent but also feel that these types of people should be called out to an extent.

    I am also still a bit curious as to where the ground fighting techniques exist within the bujinkan schools. I would agree that some of the chokes applied are a bit different and even more painful but as many here have already stated it really isn't the content it is the training. I really don't know of many that would know what to do if one or two things went wrong while applying one of these finishing chokes. I believe it is still difficult to choke someone who knows how to defend even when you have top position.

    There is another pretty well known story of a high ranking buj instructor (with judo background) that allowed a judoka to sit on top and apply a choke as he claimed to have the ability to resist chokes...another senior student present, had to stop the judoka as he wasn't resisting very well.

    As I mentioned, it isn't a bad thing that there isn't a lot of newaza in most koryu as there just wasn't a real need.

    Best,
    Todd Schweinhart
     
  6. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Just for the record - those movements bear no relation to anything that I've seen in the buj
     
  7. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Are the geki ryu folks still apart of the bjkn?
     
  8. JibranK

    JibranK Valued Member

    Considering his students, he would certainly know...
    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6L96_SBIpzE"]Ninjutsu New Jersey - YouTube[/ame]



    At the very least, they claim to be.


    I would love to watch a reality tv show of visiting various Bujinkan dojo for taryu jiai. :)
     
  9. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    With so few people shouting from the roof tops that living in Japan is the only way to get decent teaching, its no wonder so few would pick up on it. This forum does not represent a majority.

    Calling a student crappy for not living in Japan is disingenuous at best. They dont know they have crappy instructors. Their isnt a notice on sticky boards saying go to MAP and read all that PR has to say before joining... It is a cultural issue. Westerners expect that someone with a teaching license will actually be able to teach them the skills they are paying for.

    Its insulting and trollish. Crappy students would not be crappy if they had teachers worth a crap and a organization that didnt willingly hand out teaching licenses(arent don ranks seperate from the teaching certificate?) to craptacular teachers..

    Stop trolling these people and calling them crappy students. They are just students, why or how would they know their teacher sucks? Why should their first reaction be " Omg i want to try that Bujinkan art, guess i should move to Japan"? Why should that even cross their mind? As westerners they expect that the person with the permission to teach will be able to teach them correctly. Sure they should all to to this forum first before joining any dojo but most dont even have that notion in their heads..

    They have no idea that crap instructors were allowed and given licenses to teach. Maybe if a testing committee went around to all these schools and was able to prove some how their teacher sucked then their eyes would be opened. They then could stop wasting their time and money on a crappy instructor and actually go do arts with quality control mechanisms in place for more then a hand full of people.
     
  10. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Done whining?

    Martial arts are just that, martial. If what you study isn't and you stick around, you deserve what you get. I thought caveat emptor, taking the car for a spin before buying, consulting your Better Business Bureau, and shopping around were all Western concepts. Doesn't :google: work no matter where you are(except maybe China)? If you are an adult and paying someone for martial arts lessons, you have no excuse for not doing your homework.

    Maybe in 1984, but not in 2015. As a grown man(or woman) looking to learn a traditional Japanese art, you must do you own research ahead of time or else you never know what you are going to get. There are much fewer charlatans claiming to be a master of the tea ceremony or judo or whatever in Japan, because they know that people can easily check their credentials. Putting such a responsibility on anyone but yourself is almost a guarantee that you will not make it in the martial arts.
     
  11. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    So you're saying it's ok that Hatsumi gives out godans (essentially teaching licences) to people who are awful ? And that it's someone's own fault if the only person local to them is one of these awful teachers ?
     
  12. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Don't know who you're talking to because you didn't quote anyone but, if that was in reference to my last post, please point out where I wrote that.

    If you went to a doctor and he told you that you needed a very expensive surgery at the end of this month, would you just say okay or would you get a second opinion? Would you investigate the sudden disease he told you that you were suffering from, or would you just follow along like sheeple? How could you not know in today's age about the qc issue?

    It is your responsibility to find and learn from someone legitimate, nobody else's. If you can't pass that first test, forget about any others.
     
  13. ToddSchweinhart

    ToddSchweinhart Valued Member

    Kframe you make some very valid points that I was alluding to in several posts here. Without any quality control it has become confusing issue for the public. Even if there are a core group of guys that study "the real stuff" they will still be heaped in with the rest.

    Many martial artists I have met in Japan joke on the buj organization, some do say that they think Hatsumi sensei and Takamatsu sensei are/were knowledgeable and skilled practitioners but the group as a whole isn't taken seriously at all.

    I would also agree with what PR is saying...everyone IS responsible for themselves to an extent. However, the issuing body of such teaching certificates and rank could (maybe should) also be held accountable.

    Best,
    Todd Schweinhart
     
  14. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    Bad analogy is bad , you can't set yourself up as doctor without the relevant qualifications , and in the UK you don't have to pay for operations.
    Which brings me back to my original point of how can you blame the students when the org is allowing sub standard teachers to be promoted ?
     
  15. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    NOPE Not done.

    You see why would normal joe blow assume someone is a charlatan when they first go se them and see the teaching license on the wall? Most well adjusted people dont automatically think people suck... So why should their first instinct be to start private investigations on them?

    Your example of taking the car for a spin is a very bad one. It may drive well enough, have four doors and move down the road with few fuss's, yet if the person has no way to compare it to any other example how would they know? Especially if the example that they should be looking at is only available through poorly made videos. During that critical decision making period before joining, if the potential student could see and experience the better side of the art, then many of these DOJO would not exist today.

    As such you have not proven, not once, that every single instructor out side of Japan is worthless. You can not lump every single instructor together, unless you have personally met and trained with them all.

    I have said it before and ill say it again. Your correct that the student bears responsibility however and you always neglect this, the organization does as well. They allowed the poor teachers to exist by giving them teaching licenses and allowing them to teach. The organization must bear responsibility they can not get away scott clean..
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2015
  16. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    What year is this? Would you buy a car without taking it for a spin? Would you marry someone you met yesterday? Why would you entrust your self defense training(or whatever you study martial arts for) to just anyone?



    There are bad doctors with degrees, malpractice is not uncommon, and people also make mistakes, so wouldn't you want that second opinion and wouldn't you research the disease and doctor to make sure you were getting the best available? Or would you just trust anybody with a MD after their name?
     
  17. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    If you are studying martial arts for self defense or something else personal safety related, why wouldn't you is the question...:dunno:

    Trusting people isn't a bad thing, however making sure you are trusting the right people for the right thing is a life skill. If you have not mastered it, you may get taken advantage of. As an adult, and beyond that, as an intelligent person with modern day conveniences like the internet, books, etc., there is no reason why a person shouldn't be able to find out some very basic and fundamental things about a school or teacher before they make any decisions. If they do not take the time to do so, that is on them. The first part of self protection is self.
     
  18. ToddSchweinhart

    ToddSchweinhart Valued Member

    For the most part you can trust people that have MD behind their name as there is a certain quality that goes along with it. It doesn't mean you would go against your own judgement, research etc...

    Problem with the ranking in the buj is that it defeats exactly what you are saying....I know in my hometown and probably many other places 8 out of 10 instructors are over ranked. So if you did get a "2nd or 3rd opinion" and went to another 15th dan dojo that has teaching certification from the headmaster in Japan then you may see the same stuff.

    I was at a workshop that had two Japanese martial arts guys participating and two other buj instructors showed up and changed coming out with a tshirt, Hakama, karate belt and rubber soled tabi....one of the Japanese guys laughed out loud and the other whispered are these guys serious or is this a joke. Both of their comments were....when I was in Japan soke did it. Some of the "fault" goes back to the issuing organization. These guys were both instructors with at least Godan or above level licensing. Sad to see really.

    Best,
    Todd Schweinhart
     
  19. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    Saying the same things over and over don't make it right

    As a master technician I know enough about cars , would you agree ?

    That's a pretty awful straw man

    But they have a black belt and the correct Dan grade that the Internet tells me they should have to teach.
    Malpractice gets pretty widely advertised and tends to get dealt with pretty efficiently.
    Your constant refusal to admit that the problem starts with your own org and teacher after you've already said elsewhere that you wouldn't waste your own time and money on training in the mainstream Bujinkan makes you look trollish.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2015
  20. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Actually people, it's quite simple. I never said that the teachers with godan and higher who weren't able to back it up either physically or knowledge shouldn't be held accountable. I've also preached about the traditional ranks being the only way you could know if someone was legitimate or not. I've explained the entire situation, debunked more videos than I can recall, and always say you should learn in Japan under a master. Now I'm trolling? LOL, I almost burst my spleen laughing. But be that as it may, the onus is still on the prospective student. If they can google the fact that the godan is what is needed to teach(actually not exactly), then they should have enough on the ball to do more in-depth research.

    Studying martial arts is a big step and choice to make, maybe if more people approached it like buying a house, getting in a relationship, or buying a car, there wouldn't be so many students of bad teachers. However, I think some actually get exactly what they are looking for. Either way, it's their choice.
     

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