Grey Area of Self Defence (and defence of property)

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by Pretty In Pink, Aug 11, 2019.

  1. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    On The Tools

    This is a story in which a man has electrified his van when the alarm goes off. He claims it doesn't go off except for when someone is forcing entry.

    Reminds me of a few similar instances of which people tried to defend their property. Two that spring to mind are one guy was sick of people peeing on his doorstep (retail) on weekends that he had it electrified. So when a continuous stream hit the step it sent the shock back up. He was asked to remove it iirc.

    The other is people placing raxorblades underneath their garage door handles. If you don't try and break it open you won't get cut so why should someone be asked to remove it?
     
  2. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Because it's not reasonable force, and because people who arnt upto no good get hurt too.

    Iirc there was a case years ago where a police officer chasing a criminal cut open his femoral artery on some glass ontop of a wall and died.
     
  3. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

  4. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Isn't that pretty much asking why have proportionality as a criteria to self defence at all?

    If you don't try and break in to his garage you won't get sliced fingers. If you didn't start a fight with that guy carrying a razor for protection you wouldn't have got slashed.
     
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  5. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Nah, in social instances it takes two to tango. Things can be escalated and de-escalated. When someone breaks into a home or residence it is one person doing all the initiating. Surely he should be able to use whatever is at his disposal in his own residence to defend his property?


    What alternatives does he have? Police force has been cut, can't rely on them to find his tools again. I find it unreasonable that someone can't defend they're property. They don't care about alarm systems, so what's to determine them?
     
  6. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Perhaps he could remove his tools from his van and store them somewhere secure instead.

    Or is that just crazy talk.

    Edit; If I've read it properly once the alarm goes off the exterior door panels are live, it only takes one passerby with a heart condition to touch it and boom, that's a manslaughter charge.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
  7. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Electrician wires van to zap thieves with 2,000-volt shock after break-ins

    Electrician gets revenge on thieves with 1,000-volt electric shock | Metro News

    Its just a publicity stunt to sell more of them.

    And he's changed the figures around a lot in each interview, so I'm guessing he might be adding a little to the story.

    1000 volts 2000 volts, 2 grand loss, 5 grand loss.

    As a tradesman the tool losses can also be claimed back against tax, so not at all worth risking a passerby's life/ your own freedom for.
     
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  8. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Well, the title is misleading here. This is solely about defense of property. Not self defense at all. Those are not the same thing. Self defense should not be part of the title.

    Every self defense instructor worth a darn will tell you that if you can give up property and/ or run away from a situation- that is the course of action to take. Someone robs you for your wallet, give them the wallet. If you think the attacker will harm you regardless of whether you hand over the wallet, then it becomes a different matter.

    So, one can argue about defense of property rights. And whether one has a right to cause harm to a burglar when not even around. But that simply isn't self defense and shouldn't be framed as a self defense question.
     
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  9. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    You know what a nice alternative might be? Same thing that's put in money containers. Small vial of luminescent ink that doesn't come off.
     
  10. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    With respect , would you really want to add an hour or more to the beginning and end of every day unloading and reloading your tools and equipment from and to your van every day ?

    I’ve heard of more than one man in a van business being finished because some low life had emptied their van of everything.
     
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  11. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Its all tax deductible and its standard SOP to remove your tools everynight, literally the majority of white vans all have signs on saying "no tools are kept in this van overnight".

    I'm not saying it's not a problem, but this is literally a publicity stunt that everyone is falling for.
     
  12. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    As I said in some cases emptying your tools can take an hour , a sticker means nothing.
    It may be tax deductible , but , if your a one man band that really doesn’t help if you’ve suddenly got to find maybe 4 grand (sometimes more) to be able to go to work tomorrow.
     
  13. ned

    ned Valued Member

    I seem to remember a similar case where an old fella rigged a wire to a shotgun to fire when his shed door was opened after a run of break-ins
    - then blew his hand off when he forgot it was there and walked in to get something :(

    (Most people I know have to leave their vans kitted out all the time, theft is always a risk wherever you live. But probably as many break ins happen on site or outside properties you're working on so you have to be on your toes.)
     
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  14. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    Yes and no.....SD as a martial art then yeah. But I argue that at times property protection within context is just as important.
    As used in some examples here, people have their whole livelihood based in van work. If that would be gone... no job. No jobs, no income, no income comes mental health deteriation, increase risk of domestic incidents and so on and so forth (worst case scenario)

    Thats not that different when people suffer a form of Post Trauma incident after a physical assault.
    "If only a bit of SD knowledge was available..."

    And in the exact same way of physical martial defence, theres Reasonable and Necessary force when it comes to protecting property.

    For example: lacing your milk in the communal work fridge with laxative is probably not reasonable....but very funny.

    But I too want to stay safe in my own home. Do I wait until Mr Naughty comes into my home then double wrist lock him? Or do I bring in preventative measures.
    - CCTV (or a sign saying so)
    - Gravel path
    - double locked doors and windows
    - tiny super cute dog
    - sensible lighting/curtains

    These are usually deemed as reasonable as there is no intent to harm, just to "scare off" the naughty folk.
    But hidden razor blades in the hedges is not. Because theyre designed to do nothing but harm.
     
  15. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Fair argument. I think though that if you invest in all that and you're still getting robbed regularly you might need more measures. So if I was to get permanent ink exploding thing like they do in cash machines, would that count as non-harmful? Also help identify the culprits too I suppose.
     
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  16. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    In London, Police have been giving out a invisible ink pen. Its not perfect but it's also something...

     
  17. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

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  18. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

  19. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Some years ago you could buy spring loaded devices that a person might load a shotgun cartridge into. Said device was attached to a trip wire which would trigger the device which would fire the cartridge.

    You were, of course, supposed to load blanks and point them straight down to frighten potential intruders.

    I'll bet there were some who chose to use live cartridges, and a proportion of those who ended up taking family/friends/pets to the hospital/vet/morgue.

    Wouldn't alarms like this be defeated by thieves in marigolds anyway? Not that that wouldn't be funny in it's own right :D
     
  20. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    You can take the boy out of Liverpool but you can't take Liverpool out of the boy.
     
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