Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by JamesR, Feb 8, 2012.

  1. hwarang cl

    hwarang cl The Evil Twin

    To each his own

    If you can find the same quality and quantity of material in another school, instructor , MA, or system of MA for cheaper; Go for it!!

    As for the reason for the higher testing fees at BB. Well with rank comes responsibility; with responsibility comes opportunities, like special seminars that are free to attended, QCCE (Quality control continuing education) seminars, and the opportunity to teach private lessons, to make money!!!

    Also the Assc. expects/assumes if you are 3rd dahn or higher you have a school or are at-least a head instructor at a school, so the testing fee, if you are doing the right things to promote and build your school shouldn't be that much for you.

    As for underBB testing fees, as long as they are consistent through the ranks (say 10 USD for stripes and 20 USD for belts or whatever configuration you choose) I have no problem with it.

    (more later - Work Emergency)
  2. Obewan

    Obewan "Hillbilly Jedi"

    That's a matter of opinion, and also not the point I was trying to make.

    Why? It's no cost to you. What business is it of yours? It's between your brother and his instructor. Your brother isn't complaining, you brought it up, as if you know all about running a school or major MA organization. Walk in those shoes then you can make moral judgments on the subject.
  3. tulsa

    tulsa Valued Member

    i disagree with you. There is no Proprietary information here. This is common knowledge that is on several sites on the internet. So as I have said before if it changed since I left and the many sites on the net posted this then it changed. What are you ashamed of? The FEES? I find them very reasonable. I would have linked the sites for you but I thought that just showing someone the average costs would be no big deal. So what are you "****ed off at?" :evil:
  4. JamesR

    JamesR Valued Member

    He's 13. He doesn't pay the fees, my parents do, and they too aren't too happy with the price either the way the country is and the price of everything.

    I just took it upon myself to have a little dig and see why.
  5. Obewan

    Obewan "Hillbilly Jedi"

    That makes sense, sorry about being a...well you know. ;)
  6. JamesR

    JamesR Valued Member

    No problems lol :)
  7. Obewan

    Obewan "Hillbilly Jedi"

    Just because it's on several sites doesn't make it alright to post it here or on the other sites for that matter. This information is between the Association and the BB candidate and not to be published for judgment on a public form. What makes you think I'm ashamed of it? I'm not, if I had a problem with it I'd be somewhere else, you can relate to that, right? ;) It just happens that I understand business a bit better than you and I know that these types of outside discussions lead the public to prejudge and form opinions that may interfere with individual schools, not just WKSA but all KS related arts.

    Perhaps I am bit grumpy today and over reacting...see here's my grumpy face. :yeleyes:
  8. tulsa

    tulsa Valued Member

    Well let us say you understand a different style of business. I have always used a total transparent business model. If you want to know what I charge or how much something costs me then I will tell you. I feel like I would be ashamed to do nothing less. I know, I am one of the few that believe this way is best. But I made money and my students always trusted me because of this. I never "over charged anyone for anything in my life. If I did not believe in a product I would not sell it. I know KS is worth every penny someone charges as long as the teacher is good one.

    I understand your point but again we see differently on this matter. We can, as they say, agree to disagree? I hold your post in high regard, most of the times...:p

  9. Obewan

    Obewan "Hillbilly Jedi"

    Should have been what I said, "different" not "better" :cool: Of course you need to be up front with your students. I just believe there's a time and place for it. And I guess that's what got my panties in a bunch. ;)

    Ill advised :p
  10. Aegis

    Aegis River Guardian Admin Supporter

    I'd argue that this is exactly the sort of place that information should be, as it allows people considering the art to make an informed choice as to whether they want to train knowing the up front costs in advance. Information like that can (and arguably SHOULD) make a huge difference as to whether someone wants to start training in the first place.

    I for one would stay far away from any organisation which was going to charge me that much just to be recognised for the skill I'd already paid to learn. I'm quite happy that my shodan grading will cost me £20-30 depending on how many other candidates are entered on the day.
  11. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    As long as all other costs from all other organisations are similarly spelled out I don't think it's an issue.

    I do not train in KS; I do, sometimes, hear people complain about the prices of TKD gradings. They will neglect to mention that their class fee is double a TKD class, their dobok/gi costs twice as much, they pay for compulsory extras etc etc.

    Full disclosure has to mean full disclosure.

  12. Obewan

    Obewan "Hillbilly Jedi"

    :hammer: Just kidding lol.

    Seriously though your response is exactly why I object. What ever the fee is for testing it should represent a value within an organization, and it can be different higher or lower for specific reasons. For instance I provide a pizza party at my belt promotions for all in attendance that means parents, grandparents, and any other guests present at the ceremony. That's an added value that may not be recognized in a generalized statement about the cost of testing, therefore a prejudgment about the value in the cost could be determined as just over charging when the price may be justified.

    To paint a whole Art with a wide brush stating that because one school charges more for testing the organization as a whole is overpriced is not fair.
  13. karma

    karma Valued Member

    hey, no problem here. I fully understand your wanting to know different prices,and why. But your arresting these drunks, violent offenders, scumbags as you say, etc. etc. are also by your own choice. But you expect a,check. Lights, water, time, research, etc. also does,not come free. I enjoy what I do, make NO mistake, but just as you, I gotta eat, pay a mortgage, etc. I chose this as my profession and I too expect a check. Again, folks that sign up with me know up front what they are paying. I will say,I am,probably not as cheap as most around,me, but not only do they understand what they will be paying, but why. They also understand what my qualifications are before joining with me. My concern Is not only making sure they are getting quality instruction, but have an understanding of what they are learning. If they decide its for them, great, if not and they just want the,cheapest out, great. I will more than happily give them,info on another school that may be better suited for what they are looking for.
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2012
  14. tulsa

    tulsa Valued Member

    AAAUUUGGGGHHHHHHH!!!! (Charlie Brown Yell)

    Can't we just all get along? NOT!

    In my research here is where the average Martial Art School get there money:

    rank testing fees
    equipment sales

    The term nickel and dime'd to death mean anything to anyone? We have a school that had (and I do not kid) over 20 different colored belts before Black. they test every two months with NO double testings unless you want to pay the combined testing fees. It is sad. They also use different colored tops and pants for different "groups in the school" so if you join one you have to pay for a new uniform ( and who owns just one uniform? ). They charge for stripes on the belts which are "tested" during normal class times with no advanced warnings ( 10 dollars a stripe ). They make it mandatory for the students to attend at least 4 different "seminars" or "Competitions" a year ( cost 35 to 50 dollars a pop ). The gear they sell has there logo on it so it costs double what it would without the logo, but the only gear allowed in class is the "Licensed" gear. They have monthly Movie nights that costs money, They have fund raisers for School equipment improvements. AND SO ON AND SO ON!!!!!! {insert Charlie Brown Yell Here}

    If a school charges a decent monthly tuition and maybe a what some call a high belt fee, but none of the rest, you are probably doing really good. I have always had a yearly Administration fee of $100.00. The student get a new uniform, an hour long private lesson and where we discuss what they need to do to reach there goals. It also included a body evaluation which included flexibly, strength, weight, endurance evaluation and comparisons from the previous years.

    Hey JamesR: Does your brother enjoy classes? Does he look forward to going to the classes? Is he excited about Kuk Sool? If yes, then why not encourage him instead of finding fault with the costs. If your parents are being hit hard with the economy then have them talk to the instructor and see what can be worked out. Sometimes a trade or "discount" can be given. You never know.:evil:
  15. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    The major difference being that a Police Officer cannot choose to overcharge as much as he likes.... Which I think is the point you are missing.
  16. tulsa

    tulsa Valued Member

    This is true, a Police Officer works for the public, they get a salary with benefits like : retirement - health insurance - uniform allowance - free donuts ( just to throw that one in) - around here free transportation to and from work - over time pay - plus much much more!

    A Martial Art School owner gets NONE of these things. They work over time every week usually 60 to 80 hours a week - no 2 days off every week - they pay for there own insurance - buy there own uniforms - have no matching 401k / retirement - they have to pay things like rent, gas, electric, water, trash, insurance, advertising, cleaning supplies, plus much more before they make a dime. They also are not guaranteed any salary if the times are bad. Not cost of living increase every year. They are taking more of a financial risk then anyone that works for someone else.

    Not saying the police officer does not Deserve there pay, but does not the School owner? :evil:
  17. hwarang cl

    hwarang cl The Evil Twin

    IIRC, disclosing any Assc. proprietary information is a violation of the confidentiality agreement all students and BB's have signed when enrolling. Just to put that out there.

    Tulsa; I really like your signature, btw.

    I think this thread has gone off track, and off the deep end.
  18. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    That doesn't really address the over-charging though.

    As for school owners deserving anything, that comes down to the quality of the Instructor, and the willingness of the students. Personally somebody charging a 13 year old FIFTY pounds for a brown belt sounds like he probably doesn't deserve it.
  19. Aegis

    Aegis River Guardian Admin Supporter

    Students have to sign confidentiality agreements??
  20. tulsa

    tulsa Valued Member

    This is the point, it is only over charging to those that think it is. Do you not think it is over charging what McDonalds charges for a BigMac Meal? Or Gas prices. If a teacher needs to bring in 5000.00 dollars a month to cover there costs and have 2000.00 dollars before tax for a salary but only wants 50 students to teach so to allow him or her to teach more one on one the cost per student would be 100.00 per student per month. But the things we do not know about JamesR's brother situation is how many students in the school, how much over head. If you look at the total picture not just what comes out of your pocket then you might see it in a different light.

    I could charge 10 dollars a month with only 5 dollar belt fees but that means to get 5000.00 a month I would have to teach 500 students. How would they learn? What would classes be like? Could you learn? :evil:

Share This Page