Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by JamesR, Feb 8, 2012.

  1. karma

    karma Valued Member

    Really? A good teacher shouldn't be making a living? He or she should what...... Pass it on for free, just because they enjoy martial arts? Heck, I can train in my backyard on my own with no overhead. Do you take into consideration what this teacher himself/ herself had to pay and go thru to attain the material you are learning? Once again, I do not agree with scam artist, but the way you are presenting yourself is you want quality material cheap. It's a very biased and unrealistic Outlook. I have spent wayyyyyy more time in my craft than most other professionals studying as hard as anyone has in their field of choice. And you think I shouldn't' t make a living? That's absurd. And no,you do not know 40 ways to escape a wrist lock, you know 3.
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2012
  2. Shibby!

    Shibby! Valued Member

    Think we are at cross meanings buddy!

    There is a larger rich/poor divide in the US, however the educated APPEAR to get rewarded in the US far more than in the UK.
    Work out your percentage of pay to cost of KSW tuition, that would have given a better example of value, because exchange rates dont mean too much, in buying terms, remmeber that not too long ago rate was £1-$2 which can adjust perceived value of something. :)
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2012
  3. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    Really? Was your old school that good such that your Yellow belts were teaching?

    Are you seriously trying to criticize my grammar and style of writing? Meanwhile, many of your posts have glaring errors. I wonder if you used this criteria in your decision to leave the WKSA. You see some errors by the WKSA and without noticing your own bigger, perhaps, Yellow Belts lay constant complaint about the WKSA.

    You say that the WKSA doesn't teach concepts...well, the WKSA is just the parent association. It is the responsibility of the instructors to teach so the onus falls on the individual school-owners and instructors, not the parent organization. Even so, unless your school was the #1 school in the Won and if the teaching at your school was truly "A+" worthy, then you may have a point about WKSA quality. Was your school that A+, #1 school in all of WKSA?

    OTOH, if you were a "C" caliber school/instructor who finds excuse to leave the WKSA and bash it as watered down just because you notice some "C-" schools around, then I think you've lost some credibility. Instead of worrying about the C- schools...why don't you look at the A+ schools in the WKSA and try to work yourself to that level? LEAVING due to comparing yourself as better than the C- schools is not nearly as valuable as STAYING in hopes to improve and compare favorably with the A+ schools.

    This leads me back to the point I wanted to make: if you are the A+ school with A+ instruction, people will pay you what you're worth...but only if you ask for it.
  4. Frodocious

    Frodocious She who MUST be obeyed! Moderator Supporter

    OK people, let's keep this calm and civil and not start having a go at each other. Keep it on topic please.
  5. tulsa

    tulsa Valued Member

    True Dat! Unfortunately it is that way in different states here in the US, also.:evil:
  6. tulsa

    tulsa Valued Member

    Never said that, a good teacher is also a good student. Any Black Belt can learn something from a white belt. Or is it that you know everything? I have always looked toward how students do things, this way I could always tweak and try to but never perfecting what I am learning.

    When someone comes in to a school and has an open mind first and second not real good education, that person can learn from someone that has been there just a few times.

    Example: Do you LOCK your elbow out when you punch? My students learn what is correct the first day of class. If someone comes in to class and does the wrong thing then yes, they can learn from a WHITE BELT!
  7. tulsa

    tulsa Valued Member

    Sorry Frodocious, I have to respond to these, but then back to the subject I go...

    No, just pointing out that it could be read in a different way.

    If you ever actually read my posts, Yes, I do have problems with the WKSA but I have always said there was great teachers and Schools in the WKSA. I point out my differences and allow calm discussions about them. So far NO ONE has said that my concerns are false. And please see my post before this on the Yellow belt issue.

    Then why does the WKSA give people that DO NOT teach concepts or understands them "Letter of Appointments"? Since they are the "Parent" of the schools should they not teach the school owners how to teach it correctly so that the Quality Assurance is met? I have heard from several people here that it is not the WKSA's job to teach how to teach.... This is reason #73 why I left the WKSA.

    Now back to the subject at hand:

    you kind of lead us to believe that it is almost a sin to teach for money. If a person LOVES the Martial Arts why not do it FULL TIME and nothing else? A person has to live and to do this they must make money. Until you own a school and try to live off of it only you will never know what it takes. I would love to know what you do for a living so we can discuss this better.

    If a teacher is charging to much then "The Market" will not bare it and no one will join. If the teacher charges to little then the students do not hold the education in high regard and they quit. :evil:
  8. JamesR

    JamesR Valued Member

    I'm a police officer - I wouldn't want to teach martial arts full time as I would be ripping people off in order to make enough to do it.

    When the time comes that I want to start my own class, I will probably just use an empty room in a station that I can put some mats in and teach to a couple of people for next to nothing.

    "If a teacher is charging to much then "The Market" will not bare it and no one will join."

    No, since people generally don't understand how much is "reasonable" in the martial arts world, Kuk Sool seems to have all these ways of dragging people in like putting banners everywhere, handing out leaflets in public places, saying you get "Free suit & Belt" - But then when you get higher up and more into it when you are less inclined to leave, the real costs start appearing, as I have said.
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2012
  9. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Why do you feel you'd have to over charge?

    I know of a couple of clubs that are what I'd class as commercial but still give good quality and price but then they have a good pedigree so to speak.

    They aren't KSW clubs either I should add.

    At the end of the day what is value for money as you see it? A teacher could be charging five quid a class but still be trachering nonsense or made up stuff and the students be happy.
  10. JamesR

    JamesR Valued Member

    £10 - £20 for a grading, not £50.

    Like I have said, a normal class there is £6.50 or so, the grading is the same length except nothing is taught, the instructor just sits and watches. - There is not need in the £50, that is what this entire thread is about.
  11. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    It all depends on situation of course, but if I might offer a counter argument?

    At £10 per student, I'd have to grade 20 students an hour just to cover hall hire. If they're split over ten grades and my gradings take only ten minutes (they don't!) then I'm already way out of pocket.

    Imagine if a fee for each student goes to the association, the grading examiner, my Instructor, and I actually want to make some money for my time too and you can see how the price rises.

    I know that some arts charge little for gradings, but they also tend to be the arts that charge £8-10/hour for tuition. :)

    At the end of the day training costs. If you want to train in a dedicated building with mats, bags, etc etc, it's going to cost proper money to maintain that proper facility and the people who staff it.

    If you want to train in a dusty backyard, it'll be cheaper. :)

    I'm not saying you aren't being overcharged, but I am saying that your expectations may be unrealistically low.

  12. tulsa

    tulsa Valued Member

    1st: let me translate that to US dollars = 10.29
    2nd: I am sorry that they only do an hour test. That in my opinion is a shame.
    3rd: just when getting higher rank, the rank itself is prestige. So you pay for it.
    4th: the second black stripe on a brown belt is a new Belt Rank called Dahn Bo Nim, which is Black Brown Belt.
    5th: Do they not break boards? if so add that to the equation.
    6th: If they charge for each Stripe after that it should be very little in my opinion such as 10.00 or so.
    7th: You do get a certificate at Dahn Bo Nim level.
    8th: Does your school charge only one amount for whatever belt rank testing? including 1st Dan or 5th Dan?
    9th: What are the charges in other Professional Schools around the area?
    10th: Each person will put the value of what they will pay. I personally think Police are way over paid.... (NOT), but you are telling me that the teacher is over payed. That is your right, but HOW DARE YOU tell anyone that he or she is NOT WORTH what you are being paid. This means YOU do not see the value in it, so there you have it. :evil:
  13. JamesR

    JamesR Valued Member

    Jesus christ, ok, whatever.

    Just re-read everything I had read. 90% of places just charge £5 per lesson and gradings are usually about £10 - £30 at the most (as my Ju-Jitsu is, a friends karate, the local kickboxing, BJJ, MMA etc)

    But I guess you aren't going to give in, night.
  14. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    He said at the start though, it's not even a grading, it's a stripe, it's 6 inches of electrical tape.

    Here's an idea though, maybe there shouldn't be any tests, and you just get graded when you're good enough! Would be much cheaper and simpler for everyone! :D
  15. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    Yes, you did:

    If you want others to read between the lines and give you the benefit of the doubt concerning what you MEANT to say, then you should also do the is MUTUAL COURTESY. But if you are unwilling to follow the conversation and say things like "pointing out that it could be read in a different way"...then the feeling is mutual. Your comments will also be read in a different way.

    I think many of your points are falling on deaf ears but I do see where you are coming from. I, also, reject this whole notion of supply/demand, economics 101 notion that tulsa brought up. This is bastardizing a large scale MACRO-economic principles with small scale MICRO-economics.

    That is why I like to say "market forces" because this implies change along with size and scope. And in this case, discussing fees for a single school, the economics are purely local. For example, there is an American phrase discussing real estate economics: "All Real Estate is Local." Currently, the value of homes in the US are may have heard of it as "bubble markets." But if you look at homes in Beverly Hills, a rich city in Southern California...home prices are still rocketing. Homes bought for $1.5 million 5 years ago are selling for $4 million today. How is this possible? When home prices are falling everywhere else...why are home prices increasing in Beverly Hills? Because real estate is local and don't always fall under the umbrella of overall macro-economics.

    All these other posters are coming up with costs and time which equates to them "breaking even." Well, I wonder if your brother's school is working on another pricing method? It is loss leader pricing. I'll work with your sample numbers:

    Lets say your brother's instructor believes his classes are worth £7.5 per class. I'm not making an assessment on quality of the instructor or the art...just saying what the instructor deems is fair tuition. Although he believes he should charge £7.5 per class, he decides to charge £6.5 per class for several practical reasons which may be entirely local to the situation. This instructor then "re-coups" the £1 per class "loss" by pricing the gradings higher.

    Though this example seems like your brother is taking a huge hit right now, the pricing structure may work out such that if your brother continues in KSW for a long time, he may actually get a cheaper deal. How? There is no stripes at Black Belt...simply the next dan ranking after several years. That is several years worth of reduced-rate classes in this loss leader model.
  16. karma

    karma Valued Member

    What is reasonable to you? What is reasonable to her? What is reasonable to them? In actuality, I don't care what my neighbor is charging. I charge what I charge, but I am,up front about it. If a person does not like what,I charge, cool. They can go on over to my neighbor. As I have said, there are certainly scam artists out there looking to make a buck, and it IS truly saddening for those of us who are doing our best to provide a quality atmosphere for folks to learn. However, your point about feeling like you would be overcharging people? That is up to you and each individual who decides to teach on what they charge. I charge a certain fee to keep the lights on. If I were to charge what I wanted, considering the thousands I have spent on traveling all over to attain what little I know, the thousands I have spent on research material and textbooks ( which we can all agree is not cheap, even foe used ones), money I have spent medically getting something fixed, money I,put out when a grandmaster stayed with me, or one of the masters came in for a visit, then I am afraid my friend, I would be WELL out of your price range also. If you wish to one day teach for free, then by all means that is certainly your prerogative and more power to you. But as your being a police officer, I have a sneaky suspicion you don' t arrest people for free. I also have a sneaky suspicion you are just stirring up a pot to see some posting going on as there have not been a lot of posts lately. Sorry for my typos, I am not a wonderful type to begin with and I am typing on my phones keypad which is much too small for my fingers.
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2012
  17. tulsa

    tulsa Valued Member

    KSW Black Belt Fees:

    1st Dan: $350.00 Includes a Belt and Certificate
    (the uniform is given to the instructor so they can charge for it if they wish)

    2nd Dan:$500.00 includes a Certificate usually NO NEW BELT

    3rd Dan: $700.00 includes a Belt and Certificate

    4th Dan: $1000.00 includes a Certificate and Belt

    5th Dan: $1500.00 includes a Certificate and Belt

    After that is really does not matter. You might think this high but let me say this: When you are 1st Dan you usually start helping teach classes (for teaching is a great way to learn) and then you are not paying tuition just helping the school. Each Dan rank up is an average of 1 + year above the rank: example: for 3rd Dan, 4 years before you graduate from your 2nd degree graduation. So if all you are paying is the "Belt Fee" you are away better off.

    Some teacher still do charge for tuition at these ranks and the tuition goes up from the regular under black tuition , this is because you are gaining even more advanced techniques and skills.

    Something that JamesR is not seeing is that the General public uses Martial Arts as ENTERTAINMENT and so they use that money to do it with. How much does a Personal Trainer costs in the UK per hour? how much does a Movie in a theater costs in the UK. How much does a meal out at a nice place cost? Are they all over charging?

    Yes, belt fees can be costly but then again your brother got into it and has passed from yellow belt through Brown Belt and could have gone somewhere else knowing the belt/testing fees. In some schools (not KS) you have to pay for different uniforms every time you graduate. This is not included in the Testing fee. I can not believe a Professional school could survive just in tuition of (in your words) 6.50 pounds and very small belt fees. They would have to have well over 200 students just to pay there bills and make a few bucks. Then what kind of training are you getting? "You in the back, yea the short guy with Blonde hair, yea you, bend those legs!" A teacher charges what they think market will pay and if they do not pay then the teacher will not survive. If they do then sorry JamesR allot of other people think it is just fine.

    Oh, you said KS advertises all over the place, do you know what advertising costs? :evil:
  18. tulsa

    tulsa Valued Member

    Sorry VegasMichelle, I said "I have had MMA fighters come in and learn new things from my Yellow belts." I never said they yellow belt was teaching. see post #31 Sorry if you got they where teaching. Anyone can learn from anyone. The way they moved there body was either different good or different bad, either way I am learning what might work or what does not.
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2012
  19. Obewan

    Obewan "Hillbilly Jedi"

    This kind of post is something that really ****es me off. I would think that if someone leaves an organization they would have some integrity not to publish proprietary information. Tulsa has no business talking about what KSW does and the policies of the organization, he is no longer a part of that organization and his information is outdated. If anyone wants information on KSW go to the web site or visit a WKSA school.
  20. JamesR

    JamesR Valued Member

    ^ You mean post information that shows that people are being charged ridiculous prices?

    If only it was as simple as just "Arresting" people - I am actually putting myself in real danger and dealing with drunks, total scumbags, drug addicts, violence and general idiots on a daily basis. You can't compare that to teaching martial arts. And all the time you have spent travelling and on books and getting injured and training yourself is FOR YOUR OWN PERSONAL DEVELOPMENT. I have spent a lot of money, time, effort etc upto now as well but I still don't want to make money back from it, not that I wouldn't like people to pay a small ammount just for my time and knowledge as it isn't worthless as you said, but I wouldn't over-charge.

    And no I'm not stirring up a pot, I just wanted to know if there was a reason behind the costs!!
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2012

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