I know I go on about 'go for the elbow' but thats the way i fight. The elbows are naturally by the sides, they travel at a much slower speed than a punch and if you watch them, you work out whats gonna happen much earlier. In a real fight you dont have gloves..you can actually use those hands that make us so superior to every other living creature. Seen a monkeys hands compared to a humans? Does it make sense to smother them in gloves and fight in a ring and then hope this is the best we're gonna get...keep fighting like you got gloves on. There are a huge number of people out there whod like nothing better but there are other people who are gonna be there to stop ya
The problem is that most people know EXACTLY about distance fighting, hence an art that is so narrow in its focus tends to attract what appears to me a large amount of criticism. If a REAL FIGHT (tm) is in close then there are many arts I would consider superior. WC as I use it is more of an "opener" in so far as it allows blocks and barriers to be removed so I can get in for the heavy artillery. In close and on the feet there is very little - scratch that nothing - that can hold a candle to the Muay Thai guys...and I mean the proper fighters not hobbyists or "toe dippers" (which unfortunatley can be a lot of the MMA crowd). When those boys clinch it is like being in a washing machine! WC definitely has it's place, but is far too limited in overall scope and does little to address it's limitations. That is another reason it is often the focus of such criticism - you do not hear Judoka saying they know how to punch and kick
Ive come to think that what you say is worth listenining to Hannibal. However I cant get past the old 'guy knows not much about WC and judges it' thing when you post..In a real fight..one that bangs up out of nowhere, you want to be able to throw something out that will defend you and footwork that will get you out of the way...when i hear people talking about a T stance illl perk my ears up..
In one that bangs out of nowhere I close damn quick and either clinch, headbutt or dumog depending on circs. Ironically I use more chun based tecniques when I use range and need to remove teh obstacles as I break-in
so you use pak sau to push their arms outta the way kinda thing? Have you ever tried going for the elbow as I described? Even just wacking your arms (both) out straight will clear any attacks. When you get in close you need skill. Simple as that. And footwork.
I assume you mean pak position by "going for the elbow" - I always position as high up the forearm as possible to the middle so yes I suppose I do. The pak done properly is with the body motion anyway so where the hand goes is secondary - most chun instructors have a 100 different answers when you ask them anyway. You need skill at ANY range to be wholly effective and in any event a pak is an ancilliary to a hit
I think you want to go for the elbow, not the forearm or anywhere else. Its the elbow that gives you control. Youre right about needing skill but why Im bringing it up is the ol is WC crap thing...it dependson what your definition of WC is I guess..My idea of WC is anyone who goes to cover a leading arm and punches with the other...other people may define it as chain punching...there are many people out there who claim to be wc people..but have no idea unfortunately..
And say that youve put your left hand on his right elbow...keep it there with pressure..from here it depends on what he does (this is sensitivity, what most ignorant people think is chi sau before they dismiss WC). If he reacts strongly give way (ie.he may want to throw a hook) but still stick. If he doesnt give any pressure then you know that 1 of his 2 arms is taken care of. If he reacts strongly go with it and pick it up once his motion reaches its peak.
If you take an elbow trap rather than a high forearm there is a hinge that can be used as a counter, especially from a grappling or clinch perspective. Taking the pin/trap on the high forearm stiffens up the trapee leaving the trapper free to haul ass!!
If you go for the elbow there is nothing your opponent can do with that arm. It is the elbow you need to go for. No room for movement there sorry. Go for anywhere else but the elbow and youre either doing WC wrongly or youre doing another style..
Well without crossing hands this will have to be a difference of opinion - uless you can post a video of what you mean
why dont you try it? just whack your hand on the next guys elbow and keep it there with sensitivity..Its meant to be an open hand but keep your fingers staight, dont grab. My style is that plus going to the outside and obviously attacking with the free hand. But I would recommend it Hannibal..try just going for the elbow and sticking to it..you'll find that you have control of the guy.
You mentioned sensitivity and whack in the same sentence melb. Whack and crash in work well together. Whack and sensitivity for control do not. You have to be carful when leaving your hand in place. I like the term 'monitoring'. Too much energy in the arm and the other person knows they are being controlled on a conscious level, keep it light and there is an element of control in the other person, but at a subconscious level. Hubud is an excellent drill for this. Lose track of one of the opponents arms and a knife is drawn. Too much energy when tracking and you offer them a way to redirect the energy. An excellent energy to explore though.
I said whack cos its a harsh movement...to get contact with that arm requires a bit of effort. From there on in it isnt, its about gauging what the guy will do. You have contact with one arm, therefore that arm cant threaten you.
I would argue that it can threaten you, we train for that very event. Many when they have the arm trapped find it switches off. We train to swith the arm/hand on as soon as it is hit hard with an attempted trap. One of those cases of 'does it work -yes, does it work - no'.
thats a cryptic post simon..what the hell are you trying to say? Im saying if you get the elbow and stick to it you only have to deal with his other hand...nice and logical..do you know how to be logical simon or are you full of you know what?
Hardly cryptic, I explained how you had be to careful with controlling mechanisms. This is especially true if you are faced with a street thug, a person who quite likely has been controlled by overbearing parents since young age. Any contol at a conscious level with have him switched on in a second. Your control will tell him the fight is on. That said I agree that control (monitoring) is necessary, which is why I gave the example of the knife. I am (in part) agreeing with you melb, but your comment about me being illogical an uncapable of logic is making you look foolish, not me. Geoff Thompson's book The art of fighting without fighting gives some excellent examples of contolling mechanisms. This is where many arts fall down in the case of self defence, the lack of understanding in regard to what your action has on the aggressor.
Simon I dont want an argument. Im sorry if I offended you, I think you are one of the real MAists on this forum and definitely someone who I can learn from. Please understand that Im telling you my way of fighting here without the need of videos. Im trying to explain it.
