GM Cano Canete and Latigo and "Just Curious" [merged thread]

This is nothing more than politics.

 

I disagree with your assumption here, Mano Mano. I am not surprised that you make this comment, because I notice that your unusual spelling of Newcastle may suggest that you are a student of Bill, or maybe you known him, or maybe you ARE Bill using a pseudonym. Put it this way, Pat's status within Doce Pares as a life-long member and within San Miguel as European representative, is long established and well recorded. Even within the last couple of months, GM Diony Canete has clearly stated that he recognises two groups within the UK. That of Danny Guba (where Bill is a member) and Pat O'Malley. My advice to you concerning 'politics' would have to be to leave them out of a discussion where people seek the truth. Seems strange to me that the real politics seem to be coming from the same group since GM Diony stated this acknowledgement!!!

As an outsider to Doce pares / San Miguel / Rapid Arnis, I am curious to learn the answers to the questions raised. This is not to state that Bill shouldn't be ranked as he is, but in 'unusually fast' circumstances, a little more background information would be helpful.

1. How can anybody (not just Chief Whip, Bill) of 1st Degree even contemplate, let alone broadcast openly, the creating (because that is all that it can be) of a syllabus to 5th Degree (Master rank!)? That is impossible regardless of system and can only create doubts that legitimate methods are being applied.
2. I am considered to be a very fast learning, especially in martial arts. Even after 35 years of training, I do not think that I could achieve instructor status within 3 weeks. Especially bearing in mind jet lag, the heat and gaining a cultural understanding.
3. Will 'Whiplash Bill' be promoting his own students at the same pace? That could make for an interesting organisation...Join the Whiplash Bash and gain a black belt in 3 weeks!!!

Finally, when talking about Whips, Bill should expect some BACKLASH!!!

Must Crack on.

Peter

 

Yes I do train with Bill’s group in the Northeast as for the anonymity, Bill if you notice has been signing his posts with his full name no hiding there from him, I’ve been doing Guba Doce Pares with Bill’s group for the last three years or so not sure exactly when I started because when you love what you’re doing you tend to not keep track of time. The only dates I have are from when I started my gratings with Danny Guba so I tend use that date from when I started training formally.
As for me, my name is Alec Morris I’ve been training in martial arts as I claim just over 20+ but 30 to be exact Boxing, Wing Chun, Judo & for over 15 of those years I was a senior assistant instructor in Choi Lee Fu for Sifu Edmund Ng in Newcastle. Chimpcheng one of the moderators on the MAP Kung Fu forum can vouch for the Choy Lee Fut. So theirs my background not hiding behind my keyboard as an anonymous keyboard warrior
One more thing what makes you think I was referring to internal politics

P.S. I've updated my profile for you.

 

Well done!

Clearly you have some sort of chip on your shoulder about this Whippy thread because none of what you have just taken the time to write has any bearing on the thread or the questions asked.

With your lengthy martial arts background, especially the Wing Chun and Chi Lee Fut, you should fully understand the cause for concern that an instructor grade is being claimed after only 3 weeks of training. Therefore, it is only right that questions are asked about Bill's claim of instructor ranking (1st Degree). Let's face it, most arts take at least three years to attain that level of skill and ability.

I have known Bill for a number of years now (more than you have been training with him) and respect his dedication to the FMA, so it should not be a problem for some simple questions to be answered. Surely, Bill is NOT hiding anything...is he?

So again, let's stick to the point of the thread and answer the simple questions that are being asked, without a biography of unrealted information being generously shared.

Gumagalang

Peter

 

Can I ask you, what grade is guru in your organization & how long does it take a person to get to get the rank of guru?

 

By the way the bio is not irrelevant to the thread as you implied that I might be Bill posting under another anonymous name.

One more thing people can contact Doce Pares in the Philippines for verification.

 

Guro (not Guru) is a title for a teacher and does not confer any grade or status. That said, as guardians of the legacy of many generations within an art, the authorisation to teach does not occur quickly or easily. Building respect, trust, knowledge, loyalty and seeking the truth does not occur within weeks in any art, but actually takes many years to cultivate.

 

Bill started a thread, stating his status, duties, etc etc. Some very simple and relevant questions were asked and, as yet, neither you or Bill have directly answered them.

Indeed, I asked Bill whether or not he would now be working more closely with Pat, who does represent both Doce Pares and San Miguel. Instead of directly answering this with a simple 'yes' or 'no' comments were rather vague. As an outsider to Doce Pares / San Miguel, this does raise concerns about the integrity of the legacy that Bill states he has received. But, hey...THAT's politics for you!

So enough distractions. Let's get some straight answers to some very simple questions.

Peter

 

Yes you are correct.
What can be more political than coming on to a public forum and stating that after only 3 weeks of training that you are 'Original' and at the same time insinuating that others that have not only trained with the founder but who have trained and promoted a system for many years are not 'Original'? All of whom have never asked for a grade from either the founder, the heir or any of the 'ORIGINAL' members of the system.

So yes their may well be politics involved but not from the direction you are trying to make readers beleive. Also trying to insinuate the the questions are politicaly motivated is a good way to avoid answering the questions possed.

Now if as you say I am politicaly motivated simply because Bill is all of a sudden 'Original' SME then it would make sence that I would have objected to another individual who also trains in SME under GM Mendoza and is from a different Doce Pares camp from me when he applied to join the BCKEAI would it not?
But instead not only did I vote in favour of his membership to the board, I gave him my backing to the rest of the board of directors and we will be meeting up soon to discuss how we can work together to promote SME.

Now what a strange thing to do for some one who is suposedly politicaly motivated?

But seen as you know Bill so well maybe you can answer the questions posed? Seen as Bill seems unwilling to do so.

Best regards

Pat

 

More than 3 weeks thats for sure and like Peter and many other FMA systems we have GURO'S not GURU'S. But I suppose if you guys wish to have religious titles as opposed to being called teacher then so be it.

It's funny really it was not that long ago that I can remember Bill saying to me that he could not understand how some people got their instructor ranks so fast in the group he is in and how it was not right to gain such grades so quickly.

Funny how some peoples principals and opions change isnt it.

Best regards

Pat

 

Bill and the whip

Why are you guys against Bill?

As for titles who gives a Guru / Guro / Tuhon etc etc.....

If you want to learn SM system checkout GM Guba as seen recently at GM Diony Canete`s seminar.He knows the system unlike so many other so called masters???

 

3 weeks for full SME no, but as Bill stated the system is a sub system of SME not the full SME system.
As you have surmised that the curriculum for a weapon such as the Latigo cannot be that in-depth as it would be with the Espada y Daga.
Bill was in the Philippines for a short time; however it is also not just the time in weeks or months but the hours & minutes & intensity of training & pervious experience that also counts.
As I’m not part of SME, I will leave that for you & Bill to discus.

Concerning titles I stand corrected the Guro/Guru title,
Personally I don’t like titles they tend to pigeon hole people, a teacher should be recognizable via his teaching ability in class not by badges, title or people bowing to him, to the people I’ve taught & helped to teach over the years I was just known & called Alec, when I’ve been training with Bill & Danny Guba, myself & the other students have always addressed them by their first names.


Peter
As you thought I was Bill because I was anonymous who do you think our anonymous EskrimaWarrior is?
P.S before you ask I don’t know who Powerman is either.

 

Finally!

Right, this is the first time I have been able to connect to MAP since Friday afternoon! I don't know if the problem is Virgin Media connection or bandwith with the site, but here goes:

>I hope the finalized Latigo logo of choice doesn't end up looking like some cheesy Japanese anime/manga comic book character! Will it have some resemblance to the so-called [I hate to use this word] "Original" logo? After all, a logo, IMHO, is a symbol of representation. How can one take a silly looking logo with loud colors in a serious way? Just a thought
Strunk76<

The logo will be whatever GM Cano decides he likes the most! So, hopefully, no Manga ;-) It will include a bullwhip (surprise!!), one or two whips, one or two knives, probably the RP flag and some text. We are producing a few different ones, then we'll send them to GM Cano and he gets to choose the one he likes best.

Oh, and I'm still waiting fro a reply on the SMEC thing

>Peter Lewis

>Yeah...I missed out the rest of the sentence because:

A) You had already stated it!
B) I only mentioned the words that I knew had / would have caused concern.
C) I was in a rush...Whipping around <

Yes, I had stated a full sentence. My point was, Peter, that you edited my full statement and highlighted words out of context. I do hope you pointed out to any Pinoys who complained to you the full meaning of my sentence when looked at complete?

And I can see the whip puns aren't going to get left, are they?

>maybe you ARE Bill using a pseudonym<

As Alec has already pointed out Peter, I always sign my real name, unlike a few others on this thread ;-)

>1. How can anybody (not just Chief Whip, Bill) of 1st Degree even contemplate, let alone broadcast openly, the creating (because that is all that it can be) of a syllabus to 5th Degree (Master rank!)? That is impossible regardless of system and can only create doubts that legitimate methods are being applied.<

As I have already wrote, I created the syllabus after GM Cano asked me to, he then accepted it. If there was any part he wasn't happy with he could have asked and got changes made. And remember, Peter, it is a syllabus covering a sub-section, not the whole of the SME system, as some people here seem determined to suggest.

>2. I am considered to be a very fast learning, especially in martial arts. Even after 35 years of training, I do not think that I could achieve instructor status within 3 weeks. Especially bearing in mind jet lag, the heat and gaining a cultural understanding. <

GM Cano wants the sub-section of Latigo promoted. We, myself and my student, specifically asked to learn Latigo. He saw a chance to get the sub-section promoted in Europe, so he went for it.

>3. Will 'Whiplash Bill' be promoting his own students at the same pace? That could make for an interesting organisation...Join the Whiplash Bash and gain a black belt in 3 weeks!!! <

Nope, the exact timescale has to be agreed with GM Cano, but I'm going to suggest a few months between grades at least. The final decision as always lies with the GM of the overall system

>Finally, when talking about Whips, Bill should expect some BACKLASH!!!<

You see, Peter, I said they wouldn't get left, didn't I. Those statements have to be nipped in the bud..;-) Also, the pictures prove I have already experienced some "back-lash"!!!

>Surely, Bill is NOT hiding anything...is he? <

Nope, as I said above, problems getting onto the site.

>Pat O'Malley
Ok from what I can gather the latigo sylabus Bill is working on simply put has 3 strikes correct? I can from my limited knowledge think of at least 7 strikes but anyway<

SO we should expect to see Rapid Arnis:Latigo soon? After training in the more limited SME:Latigo first, of course.

>1. Bill wrote his own letter authorising himself to a rank of 1st degree black belt in a sub system of a system that has no belt ranking structure?<

Erm Bill typed the letter, GM Cano made a number of changes (the ONLY son; SOLE INHERITOR) and when he was happy with it, he signed it. And when he was asked what grade should we have, GM Cano pointed at Gareth, then me and said "1st Degree Black Belt". His decision, not me awarding myself anything.

>2. Bill is writing the now new belt structure for that new sub system up to 5th grade black belt even though he has only been training in the sub system 3 weeks?<

See above. Bill was given the remit by GM Cano to produce a grading syllabus for the Latigo sub-section. GM Cano approved the syllabus I produced. He could and still can make any changes to his system he wishes. It is HIS system.

>3. Bill is designing the new logo for the sub system when the system as a whole has been using a perfectly good logo since 1932 and also has a couple of other logos it also uses around the world, but its main logo has always been the same since 1932?<

Because, Bill was asked to produce a new logo for the Latigo, as already mentioned, by GM Cano. I've also been asked to update the original (there's that word again) SME logo, as the only copy GM Cano had available was a faded one on his membership card. And as you are the European Representative for the SME, can I ask why you aren't using the original logo, but rather a variation based on GM Casio's?

>4. Bill critisises other SME groups that have devised a sylabus structure as not being 'Original' but in the same breath states he is devising a sylabus and claims to be authorised as 'Original'?<

Erm, criticises groups which have had little training in SME, and then, without authorisation, have produced full SME syllabi! And see my website, labanbaston.cjb.net, for letter of authorisation. No claims necessary. I can prove it.

>5. Bill finaly admited that those who trained with the founder of the system can be seen as being 'Original' yet he did not train with the founder?<

Finally admitted? I am promoting the system of Latigo under the sole inheritor. I have never said that anyone else who has trained under GM Momoy couldn't use the word original. Once again, "groups which have had little training in SME, and then, without authorisation, have produced full SME syllabi" is the important section. I began my Doce Pares training under Danny Guba and Val Pableo in 1996, the year after And GM Momoy died. So limited opportunity to train with the man!

>6. Bill could have received a Certificate in this sub system at the Doce Pares HQ where the GM and heir to the system is based and teaches so why no certificate from the HQ?<

As stated in the first place, I have been asked by GM Cano to created certificates for the new organisation. So no certificates for the Latigo exist at the present time, so I could not have gotten a certificate in the Latigo from anywhere. Indeed the letter I have from GM Cano stating my grading says "Full certificates to follow".

>7. Bill clearly states that when they (the instructors) came to them they were pleased to see that they were already practicing. Why out of respect did he not go to them?<

Because that was the deal? We were based at the beach resort, Master Val Pableo, GM Albert Sales and GM Cano Canete, came to us. Oh, and I did go to Mactan Island and got to meet GM Casio at his Gym.

>8. Bill says, we did not treat the resort staff like ignorant servants like other tourists. Why even mention this as it has no relevance to his training?<

Because I was discussing how well we got on with the locals, and passed an observation on other peoples attitudes. So, correct, Pat, nothing to do with training.

>So on understanding Pinoy culture I leave the conclusions up to you.<

Pinoys have many ways of saying no, without saying the word. Not bothering to correct your mistakes; saying yes, then not doing whatever they apparently agreed to do; that sort of thing.

>Seen as Bill seems unwilling to do so.<

Once again see above. When my connection allows it, I do participate. When it don't, I can't!

Finally, going back over your wrtitings, Pat, it seems your main complaint is taht you don't approve of how GM Cano is organising his system. I suggest you take it up with him, if you see him next time you are over there.

And finally, to the thread as a whole, GM Danny Guba asked me yesterday to come here and point out that I have been made European Representative of the SME: Latigo sub-section by the only son of the founder and sole inheritor of the Original Momoy Canete San Miguel Eskrima System, GM Andres T. "Cano" Canete.

Anyone with any problems concerning that fact, feel free to contact him.

Cheers

Bill Lowery
5th Degree Black Belt Guba Doce Pares
1st Degree Black Belt SMEC: Latigo
European Representative for the SMEC: Latigo

 

Clearly, YOU are being very political here.

I hav stated very clearly that I have known Bill for many years and respect his dedication to promoting the FMA.

Your second sentence is utter rubbish as it makes no sense at all. Are you trying to be sarcastic or are you asking 'who' authorises people to use a title?

Also, as already mentioned, at the Seminar with GM Diony Canete, he clearly stated that the Doce Pares WHQ recognises TWO groups in the UK. Those being the Danny Guba group and the Pat O'Malley group.

 

I am not interest in 'WHO' Powerman is. It is quite clear faction of Doce Pares this person belongs to.

I also don't like titles and nobody calls me by my title of Punong Guro. What I would say though, is that the use and understanding of titles IS part of the Pinoy Culture and as such, increases one's understanding of the arts.

 

Whip

Yea and the only person who knew SM system was GM Guba as he demonstrated it,where were the others????

 

Ha Ha Ha Welcome back Mr Whippy

As mentioned, I included what had offended people. Again, this is possibly down to cultural differences and what may not offend a Westerner will certainly offend a Pinoy. Of course, I put your sentence into context.

Funny that both you and Alec have selected my remark about Mano Mano possibly being Bill using a pseudonym. That's what happens when you take a small part of a sentence. Hmmm, I'm sure Ive heard something similar before!!!

Bill, my point is very simple. No self-respecting 1st Degree would attempt to write a syllabus to 5th Degree. All that happens then, is that the standard drops because a person could be awarded 5th Degree, but actually only have 1st Degree knowledge and skills. of course, this approach is not new, but it is usually very commercially driven.

Next time, try a more appropriate thread title, like "Bull-whip Bill at the Whiplash Bash.'

Thank for your answers Bill. I was starting to think that I was getting involved in the Doce Pares politics that are becoming rather tiresome of late.

Peter

 

Dude.....
yer killin me!!
Somehow,it should be wrong to be given this much ammo in public!
:woo:

 

For crying out loud folks. Do you think it might be possible to have ONE frigging discussion about Doce Pares or San Miguel in the UK without it turning into mud slinging? Could that be done, do you think?

I'm beginning to think I was an utter moron for thinking I could help make this place into a peaceable meeting ground for FMA practitioners.

Here's the deal (unless we're just going to lock yet another of these discussions):

1) Powerman, your agenda is clear. And you're not helping. So knock it off. GM Guba is NOT the only game in town. And the implication that he is isn't making you look very good.

2) Various high-level players in this discussion do, in fact, have direct access to GM Cano. So CHECK THIS OUT. I'm fed up with mud slinging about what is and isn't the case when you could bloody well call the man up and check for certain what his edict was.

3) The whip puns are killing me. And not softly.

4) Guro? Guru? Guro is the correct term, to my knowledge. But that's about three neighborhoods from the point of this thread. So, really, do we have to drag down every single spelling error? Raise your hand if you're actually interested in reaching a logical and constructive resolution to this discussion. Anyone?

5) Bill, in as much as is possible, please try to answer straightforward questions as presented. Everyone else, please try to ask said questions in a neutral tone. Loaded questions yield loaded answers. And people who ask them are either not especially interested in the truth or just painfully bad at looking for it. In either case, it's not helping.

Let's keep this factual and constructive folks. I have high blood pressure already.



Stuart

 

Ha Ha Ha At least the puns are working! :woo: Seriously, I'll try not to lay any more whip puns on you Stuart.

YES...that is what I have been asking for all along. Simple answers to simple questions. I think that Bill has answered many of them now.

I agree, Powerman is not being very helpful at all and is not even trying to hide his agenda!!!