GM Cano Canete and Latigo and "Just Curious" [merged thread]

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by LabanB, Oct 24, 2007.

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  1. EskrimaWarrior

    EskrimaWarrior New Member

    Ha ha ha Stuart - I really am slow today - I got it - DEVO

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxH39QlRuhg"]Devo - Whip It (Dir. Gerald V. Casale) - YouTube[/ame]
     
  2. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

  3. LabanB

    LabanB Valued Member

    Hi Pat

    > but my point here is in the context of your original post and how it can be seen as saying that if some one who is an original student of the late Mang Momoy has not trained under GM Kano they are somehow seen as not being Original San Miguel. <

    Ahh, fair point, not my intention.

    >Each person that has trained with Mang Momoy has a valuable contribution to any future SME knowledge you may need which can help you to gain a greater understanding of the system and its founder, hence I say dont get too hung up on a word you may find it limiting in the future.<

    True. Tom Bisio has a syllabus based on his notes which he made whilst training with GM Momoy. He is open about the fact he didn't train in all of the SME system, but his system is just as valid as any one elses. I think GM Cano simply has reached a point where he wants to assert his authority as far as the overall system is concerned.

    >And you may have noticed choosing words in pinoy culture can lead to all sorts of problems, that is the pinoy way and a greater understanding on the use of words in a cultural context with regards to the PI is a must if you want to progress in the FMA in the Philippines.<

    Overall I get your point and agree. BUT! it wasn't the chosen words that caused the problem, it was the wilful misinterpretation that has caused problems. Both Karl (whoever, no second name) and more surprisingly Peter Lewis chose to highlight only part of the offending sentence, missing out the last part "(clearly an attitude some tourists have)" which has meant that the sense and aim of my statement was lost.

    Cheers

    Bill
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2007
  4. LabanB

    LabanB Valued Member

    Syllabus

    Hi All,

    I must have replied to Pats text as the threads were being merged.

    We are working on the Latigo logo at the moment and I'll be able to present the syllabus et al once GM Cano has chosen the one he likes. OK the syllabus has five levels to black belt, combining the basic three strikes of the system (Forward, Circle, Circle-Reverse) variations on those three and combinations of those three. As both Stuart and Peter have pointed out, its a small sub section of the total system, but an important one as regards body mechanics.

    I have already had my guys producing the crack within a few minutes of starting to play. Repetition, as Peter rightly says, is the name of the game. To get the "pop" once, then struggle to get it again. One of my students described it as "addictive"; and frustrating that reproducing the pop in the early stages of training is so hard to do! With prolonged training - this can be over months or over a few hours (try three and a half hours of whip cracking to show up the weaknesses in your deltoids, legs and lower back!!!) - the benefits to body mechanics are obvious and immediate. The power you can start to develop in close range strikes is really very impressive, even after a short period of time.

    I have played with whips previously, but only in a very amateur manner. When I read that GM Cano's specialty was the latigo, and that he was available during my time in the PI, I was delighted to get the chance to train professionally. I got the impression that he was pleased that people were interested in learning his specialty and also in helping to preserve and promote this lesser trained aspect of his Fathers art.

    He was clearly impressed with, not only how fast we learned the material, but also how we extrapolated: If you can combine the strikes, and you can aim high, middle and low, then a matrix of strikes can be created. I don't think he was expecting us to move forward with the material as fast as we did. Combined with the respect for his Fathers art, and the dedication to training (he turned up a couple of times to find us already practicing!) GM Cano was clearly keen for myself and my student to represent his art.

    The later stages of the syllabus (I've created upto 5th Degree Black Belt (Master level), after that grades will be honorary - as with most systems)) depend on manipulating either larger whips (2 braid leather, 3 braid leather etc) or demonstrating mastery of all of the previous material with both hands! GM Cano was very happy with the syllabus I put forward.

    Once again, the aim of the syllabus is to organise the material into a format that allows the material to be graded for those who wish to teach later. For those who simply wish to learn the material the syllabus allows them to see ahead, so they know what to expect later in their training. Hmm, like any syllabus really ;-)

    Hope this sheds some like on your questions Eskrima Wrrior, and Stuart. Any more please feel free to ask.

    And Stuart...Whip it Goood!

    Bill
     
  5. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Hi Bill
    thanks for your reply, I see another thread has been whipped into this topic and on reading your last post it raised a question that is cracking around in my head which I hope you can help me with.

    Now what I dont understand is, if as you say you have been awarded 1st grade black in latigo how and I know I may be being picky here but how can a 1st grade black belt of any system write and devise a sylabus and belt structure to a level 4 instructor grades higher than the rank they hold? Surley that job would be done by the main instructor and not the student of the instructor. Maybe I am missing something or I have misunderstood what you are saying.

    Please clarify

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  6. Damien Alexander

    Damien Alexander New Member


    "Are we not men?!
    We are Devo!
    Are we not men?!?!
    D-E-V-O!"


    Long live the spud boys from Akron O!!


    I'm with ya stuart!
    :D


    Damien
     
  7. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    This new thread that was merged with the original raises another important question.

    How long would you consider a reasonable time for a person to become an instructor in a particular style of FMA? And how long should their students take to also acheive the same rank?

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  8. Peter Lewis

    Peter Lewis Matira Matibay

    Grasshopper...cannot the Master learn from his student? :cool:
     
  9. Peter Lewis

    Peter Lewis Matira Matibay

    A well-rounded martial artist could pick it up in no time. ;) Clearly in this case, the 'Whip fits the Bill!' :D :D :D :D :D Couldn't resist that one! Gotta say, this thread is generating some cracking jokes! :p
     
  10. LabanB

    LabanB Valued Member

    Grading Syllabus

    Hi Pat,

    I put forward a syllabus, and GM Cano accepted it! The later stages (BB 2-4) are all the previous material but with leather whips of different weights, so no need to learn anything new, just learn how to handle a larger weapon. The fifth degree is both hands, so again no "new" material as such.

    Again, I put forward the proposed syllabus and GM Cano OK'd it. It does mean, of course that whilst a 1st Degree BB, I also have targets to aim for..that is actually a whip based gag...trust me!

    Hi Peter,

    The whip is a great, fun weapon to play with. I can safely say that my student, Gareth Rodgers, has found his specialty.

    Bill
     
  11. Karl

    Karl Valued Member

    My name is Starke, Karl Starke and it was not my wilful misinterpretation nor was my intention to make it bigger....For your information I talk with some people from the Pi and they saw it the same way....wrong words thats all...
    I will not say anything more about this here nor I will answer any question....
    Just forget it ...........
     
  12. Peter Lewis

    Peter Lewis Matira Matibay

    Hi Bill

    Yeah...I missed out the rest of the sentence because:

    A) You had already stated it!
    B) I only mentioned the words that I knew had / would have caused concern.
    C) I was in a rush...Whipping around :D

    All the best

    Peter
     
  13. Peter Lewis

    Peter Lewis Matira Matibay

    BULL-WHIP BILL STRIKES BACK! :woo: :woo: :woo: Crack that Whip!
     
  14. lhommedieu

    lhommedieu Valued Member

    Three things:

    I think it might be helpful to clarify how training in the San Miguel Eskrima latigo stands in relation to the rest of the system – at least insofar as I learned it. It is generally reserved to advanced students and teachers in order to train certain attributes that Momoy considered essential to espada y daga technique. These attributes include the ability to project one's intention through to the tip of the weapon, and also generate a "whip-like" burst of relaxed power that connects the core of your body to your strikes. There are several other "ancillary" weapons in the San Miguel Eskrima system used in a similar fashion with respect to developing attributes.

    With respect to whether you can "learn the latigo” in three weeks - I would say, yes –if you’re an advanced practitioner who can understand both the context in which the latigo is practiced and the amount of training necessary to realize the long-term benefits of that training. (10,000 throws sounds about right to me - so I guess I have about 9500 more to go.) In any case, “First Degree Black Belt" in any art is generally a reflection of the mastery of the basics of that art, and the basics in this case (if I am reading Bill's posts correctly) are three specific strikes and their combinations at different levels. It’s not a large sub-system, by that definition. Moreover – it’s not really about learning specific throws but understanding how the quality of any given throw (due to one’s body mechanics) can subtly, but fundamentally, change the quality of your strikes with a stick or sword. If you look at the picture of Momoy referenced below, he seems to be floating back into San Miguel stance, and it’s easy to imagine that he is just catching his over-extended opponent with the tip of his weapon. Try picturing a whip in Momoy’s hand and you’ll see what I mean.

    [​IMG]

    ***

    I didn't have any trouble understanding what Bill was saying in his post about tourists acting badly.

    ***

    Just a point of clarification. Bill stated that:

    Tom's not training in the "whole system" was (I think) by design: Momoy wanted him to learn the espada y daga curriculum - and so while Tom may not have learned "San Miguel knife" from Momoy, or "San Miguel double axe," etc., - he did learn what Momoy wanted to teach him. I think that some people would be surprised about how extensive Tom's San Miguel syllabus actually is. It's a shame he has so little time in his schedule to teach Filipino martial arts - but students (like myself) who study the Chinese internal martial arts and Chinese medicine with him can't exactly complain, either, because Tom is such an excellent teacher and mentor.

    ***

    The reason that I've decided to start training with the latigo is that I felt that I was ready. Tom refered to it but didn't teach it when he was teaching San Miguel Eskrima back in 1995, and in the 12 years since I guess I've been working myself up to it. At this point (about 25 hours of training) I'm completely self-taught, using Anthony deLongis' "Mastering the Bull Whip" DVD set as a jumping off point to learn about the leather bull whip, and then using this preliminary understanding to start to explore the rope whip as well. I'm looking forward to seeing what GM Canete and Bill Lowery have to offer, and wish them the best of luck.

    Best,

    Steve
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2007
  15. strunk76

    strunk76 New Member

    Latigo Logo

    I hope the finalized Latigo logo of choice doesn't end up looking like some cheesy Japanese anime/manga comic book character! Will it have some resemblance to the so-called [I hate to use this word] "Original" logo? After all, a logo, IMHO, is a symbol of representation. How can one take a silly looking logo with loud colors in a serious way? Just a thought.
     
  16. EskrimaWarrior

    EskrimaWarrior New Member

    :) excellent some really good views and explainations by all - thank you - especially by lhommedieu - great picture, I can see exactly what you mean. But I still can't get over this black belt in 3 weeks thing - I understand that it is a small part of a greater syllabus and that lhommedieu said it could be learnt in 3 weeks, but surely it is about doing those 10000 repititions with each move as someone said earlier that makes you own your techniques and then allows you become a black belt or instructor in something.

    I am also a little confused on the San Miguel or Doce Pares link (excuse my ignorance) is San Miguel included in the Doce Pares system, it just lhommedieu did say

    "I think it might be helpful to clarify how training in the San Miguel Eskrima latigo stands in relation to the rest of the system – at least insofar as I learned it. It is generally reserved to advanced students and teachers in order to train certain attributes that Momoy considered essential to espada y daga technique"

    So does that mean you should be an advanced student of San Miguel to learn the whip and understand the whip or is it just an advanced student of any fma system, or does being an advance student of Doce Pares as I see Bill is mean you can understand the whip (again that goes back to my question earlier on the "is San Miguel included in the Doce Pares system")

    Sorry about my lack of knowledge on the styles and sorry I can't think of another whip joke :)
     
  17. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Ok from what I can gather the latigo sylabus Bill is working on simply put has 3 strikes correct? I can from my limited knowledge think of at least 7 strikes but anyway. Assuming you add in some kind of footwork to the sylabus yes I can see how you can learn it in 3 weeks, thinking on the simplicity of it with only 3 strikes you could more than likely learn it in a couple of hours.

    So realy if you can make 1st degree black in only 3 weeks (having no real grounding in SME) that would mean you should be able to make 4th degree in 12 weeks? I have to ask myself this. What is the rush or the point for that matter, why is it so important to attain an instructors rank in such a short space of time, surely the most important thing is to spend some serious time perfecting your own technique before even considering passing it on to others? Otherwise you are only passing on something in all honestly you have not applied properly yourself?

    If anyone is happy with receiving a blackbelt in any system or even sub system in just 3 weeks then I am happy for them but will people honestly take the black belt seriously knowing it only took them 3 weeks to attain that rank, and how long should the student take before attaining the same rank? 4 weeks? 4 months? 4 years?

    With regards to SME within Doce Pares, well that would depend on who is teaching you. For instance if you train with GM Cacoy Cañete then there would be no ellements of SME, but if you train with GM Dionisio Cañete on the other hand then there will be large ellements of SME in the material taught but to truely understand SME properly you have to train within SME its self and as has been pointed out learning the latigo is used to improve you overall understanding of SME as a whole, so unless you already have a good understanding of the SME system I say again. Whats the rush to become an instructor, being an instructor in any system or sub system should be you last priority, mastering the art should be your main goal.

    Just my thoughts on the subject.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  18. EskrimaWarrior

    EskrimaWarrior New Member

    Thank you Pat O'Malley for clearing up the Doce Pares San Miguel thing and I have to say I concur with your points - and all you have outlined is why I started the thread - I just felt it odd that you can do something for 3 weeks and be a certified instructor and blackbelt, I know that if it was me I would feel I would need at least some months training (me being slow again) before owning techniques before being able to pass the techniques on, this would mainly be because I would not want to pass on the wrong technique to a student because I did not have it down properly myself.

    Having said that I have never picked up a whip so could not confirm that would be the case in this instance but if its anything like the stick I think it still has to be a few months of training 3 techniques to get it perfect and up to a black belt standard.


    Eskrima Warrior
     
  19. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    LOL

    Damien for the win! :D
     
  20. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Ok lets go back to the question of; Can you travel to the PI and be qualified in a system or even a sub system in 3 weeks having no prior knowledge of that system or sub system?

    Simply put, yes you can.

    I have seen it happen a few times but to understand how this can happen you need to also understand the Pinoy culture and the fact that a Pinoy does feels embarraced by the word NO! They never like to use the word to a guest as they feel duty bound not to embarrace their guest or themselves and will some times say yes to things to avoid embarrasememt.

    Now lets look at some points made in these two merged threads.

    1. Bill wrote his own letter authorising himself to a rank of 1st degree black belt in a sub system of a system that has no belt ranking structure?

    2. Bill is writing the now new belt structure for that new sub system up to 5th grade black belt even though he has only been training in the sub system 3 weeks?

    3. Bill is designing the new logo for the sub system when the system as a whole has been using a perfectly good logo since 1932 and also has a couple of other logos it also uses around the world, but its main logo has always been the same since 1932?

    4. Bill critisises other SME groups that have devised a sylabus structure as not being 'Original' but in the same breath states he is devising a sylabus and claims to be authorised as 'Original'?

    5. Bill finaly admited that those who trained with the founder of the system can be seen as being 'Original' yet he did not train with the founder?

    6. Bill could have received a Certificate in this sub system at the Doce Pares HQ where the GM and heir to the system is based and teaches so why no certificate from the HQ?

    7. Bill clearly states that when they (the instructors) came to them they were pleased to see that they were already practicing. Why out of respect did he not go to them?

    8. Bill says, we did not treat the resort staff like ignorant servants like other tourists. Why even mention this as it has no relevance to his training?

    So on understanding Pinoy culture I leave the conclusions up to you.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
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