GKR door knockers...

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Hiroji, Mar 6, 2007.

  1. puma

    puma Valued Member

    Yeah. Somebody showed me some clips of the GKR "World Championships" on youtube the other day. I p***** myself with laughter.

    I just don't see how GKR are even allowed to operate. Like I said in an earlier post, how can it get any worse? How can people be proud to wear the badge of GKR (which has basically been nicked from Goju) when they know the rest of the Karate world have no respect whatsoever for them? Everything is a lie, they deliberately set out to mislead people. They should be ashamed of themselves. How the hell have they been able to get away with what they have for so long without someone doing something about it? Why hasn't a National Governing Body got the power to say, "Sorry you lot, not insured, not up to standard, not real Karate, blah, blah, you can not teach. If you don't like it, tough ****,"?
  2. Jaae

    Jaae Valued Member

    We don't need the GKR in the UK, we already have enough idiots of our own :- Judan's certficated by Judans suffering from Alzheimers. Judans certified by those american idiots from the World Head of Family Sokeship Council, franchise sellers and some unique individuals who have managed to acquire not one but several seventh, eigth, and nineth dans, conseculatively......... amazing !!!

  3. puma

    puma Valued Member

    You're right - but at least some of these people have insurance! GKR has nothing, and offers nothing, except for lies of course.
  4. prowla

    prowla Valued Member

    Basically, if an MA does not have insurance (be it GKR, or any other), then it is irresponsible.
    If it cannot see the importance of insurance, then it is just plain stupid.
    If it does not have at least public liability insurance, then it could be breaking the law.
    Are people really asserting that the entire GKR Karate organisation does not provide insurance for its students (eg. via its licence fee)???
    I can't believe that that is true.
  5. Barba

    Barba New Member


    My understanding is that GKR does have insurance - particularly for negligence. So I don't know what all the insurance comments are about.

    It does seem that GKR in the UK is in a bad way from what you all have said. I guess here in Australia we have more access to experienced senseis as well as Kancho Sullivan and Shihan Karetsian.

    I'm glad that there is no personal anger towards me but I still need to say that there is a huge gap between what you guys are saying and what I am experiencing. I'm also aware that other clubs are not all perfect either.

    I train with many serious martial artists who are very genuine people and who I am proud to know. They are continually evolving as martial artists and are never beyond learning regardless of grade. Kancho himself continues to learn. Our senior instructors travel to Japan to train with senior Goju instructors regularly and are very well received especially for their work ethic and etiquette. My concern is that all this constant negative attacks are very unfair to these people. The truth is that nearly 50,000 people train in GKR every week and that many find this club to give them the benefits that can be gained from training in martial arts.

    Maybe you guys need to consider that there is good in GKR. Anyway, karate is a journey to be enjoyed by the individual - who has the right to say what is right for someone else. You can only choose for yourself. I assume you guys are enjoying your journey and I am glad you have found a club that enables you to do that. So have I.
  6. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    In the UK it is standard practice for martial art instructors to have some sort of professional indemnity cover. I think the majority of organisations consider this mandatory for their instructors. Such cover is specifically for named individuals. You don't get blanket cover for all your instructors. Nowadays this cover is upwards of about £70 per instructor per year, although I'm sure organisations with large numbers of instructors can arrange some sort of discount. GKR have been asked repeatedly by member instructors iin the UK for clarity on this point. GKR has obfuscated, ignored questions, produced irrelevant documentation and ultimately have failed to produce any confirmation or evidence to support their claim that instructors are insured. As far as anyone has been able to determine the only insurance cover GKR members or instructors in the UK have is some form of 'member to member' cover. I can't prove it but I suspect that even this is below the normal standard of member to member cover used by most martial art groups in the UK. Presumably members are covered only if the class sticks to the standard class format of kihon and no contact sparring. As soon as contact occurs then, by definition, the class is working outside the agreed format. The instructor has no cover at all so they would have to personally finance any defence against a claim made against them. My suspicion is that the student's member to member cover would be of little value here either.

    I'm sure the average standard is rather higher in Australia. However, I've spoken to enough Australian students to be certain that it is still quite variable and that there are plenty of students who receive very sub-standard tuition.

    Indeed, none of us are perfect. But it seems to me that the business model that GKR employs inherently results in a lot of people been sold something that is sub-standard, not what was advertised, potentially damaging to their health and occasionally even downright dangerous (I can cite sufficient examples of the danger to people's health to prove my point if you wish).

    I'm afraid that I don't think Bob Sullivan or Stacey Kartesian are worthy of any respect. They knowingly perpetuate a business that cynically takes a hell of a lot of people for a ride, funnelling the money earned up towards themselves. The people who deserve respect are the everyday members who train diligently and sincerely.

    Of course there is good, but in my view its in the members, not in the organisation or its hierarchy.

  7. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    I thought Robert Sullivan lived in the USA these days? I suppose when you own private helicopters, ships, planes etc like he does, international travel isn't such a problem.
  8. TheMadhoose

    TheMadhoose Carpe Jugulum

    Never had the pleasure of these guys knocking on my door but then again my town has a reputation of being slightly less than friendly
  9. puma

    puma Valued Member

    Highly experienced intructors like Sullivan an Stacey? :confused:

    What 'senior' Goju instructors do they go to Japan to train with? No Goju person I know wants anything to do with GKR, and I know some high grades that have frequent travels to Japan.
  10. puma

    puma Valued Member

    One of the frustrating things is that people can see for themselves the bad things that GKR do and everything else, but they still try to defend it. They all say the same, things along the lines of, "Well I'm happy," or, "It's not all bad," and so on. So that makes it alright then? Forget the fact it has no insurance, it lets low grades teach (and even the black belts in GKR are well over graded, they would not be black belts in a proper club), it's standards are terribly low, the whole thing is based on lies, (like claiming it is a 'traditional' style. What a traditional style founded by a low grade Aussie?), and they take everyone for a ride. I could go on and on with negative things, and come up with no positives, except for maybe the fact people start with them, and then it is possible they might one day wake up and join someone else. What does it take for GKR members to realise they are part of something that is very bad for the Martial Arts world, and it doesn't deserve their support. Why keep on defending it? Look on any forum where GKR is mentioned. Look at the responses. Outside of the GKR lot, no one, but no one has anything at all good to say about GKR. I believe you have to earn a reputation, and they have certainly earned theirs! I can't believe that with such negative publicity that they still draw big numbers.

    I don't know how they can count such numbers anyway. Surely the drop out rate is fairly high? Trying to count how many memebers train a week is pretty tricky.
  11. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    Like any art, the drop out rate is bound to be high. More so presumably with GKR, given that most of those who do stick it out eventually wake up, smell the roses and move on to another art.

    But there is always a continuous influx of new students, thanks to the 'self-defence consultants' who carry out the door-to-door sales. They work entirely on commission so GKR has practically no outlay, yet it has an army of door-to-door salesmen continuously drumming up new custom. Beyond that GKR doesn't advertise at all, the aim isn't to get interested people coming along to watch or take part in a lesson. They want you to join before you train, before you even see a lesson. I've even heard of clubs running with the door locked so strangers can't come in to watch (can't help but think there's a potential health and safety issue there).

    Former GKR instructors have told me that membership figures quoted are usually based on numbers of attendances in a week, not on the number of individuals actually attending. So you could train 5 nights a week and count as 5 'members'. So the figures are perhaps not as high as frequently quoted, but its still safe to say they have a very large membership.

  12. Jaae

    Jaae Valued Member

  13. puma

    puma Valued Member

    That makes sense Mike with the numbers. I was going to say, they can't go by licences can they? The grand total would come to, er, around 0! :eek:

    It still baffles me that these people get away with it, and that people actually stick up for them! How can you defend the indefensible? It doesn't matter what you say, how bad they are, people will still stick by them. It's madness, absolute madness. How anyone with any love for Karate at all can live with themselves for supporting GKR when they know the facts and should know better is beyond me. These groups shouldn't even be allowed to set up in the 1st place.
  14. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    One simple word - indoctrination.

    I have every sympathy for the members. I have no time whatsoever for the employees of GKR (ie. the Regional Managers and upwards), they know exactly what the organisation is about. But I have to admit that I despise those people who've learned karate elsewhere but join GKR to become a Regional Manager - they are the people who really deserve our contempt.

    But there is no law against it, and who is to judge what's quality karate and what isn't. Legislation would open up a pandora's box worth of trouble.

  15. puma

    puma Valued Member

    The most respected Masters of the 4 styles maybe? Or just employ Mr. Suzuki of Wado and Mr. Kanazawa of Shotokan. Could you imagine a GKR person trying to persuade them why he should be allowed to teach? :D I'd love to see Sullivan argue his case!

    Seriously, other sports don't have the same problems. Places like France don't seem to have the same problems with their Karate that we do. Why should GKR be allowed to do what they like here? Why can't someone say, "You are not qualified. You are not insured. You are a disgrace. Come back when you have the appropriate qualifications,"? Why can't anyone do that? In other walks of life this is done. Why not in Karate? Especially in Karate actually. It is potentually dangerous. GKR to me has nothing to do with Karate. I don't know why it gets protection. Someone should have the power to shut them down. Well that's what I think. Karate is about discipline, honour, etc. Not telling lies and fleecing people.
  16. Gong_Sau_Rick

    Gong_Sau_Rick ultimate WSL nutrider

    Why would you need insurance for a non-contact style?
  17. Hiroji

    Hiroji laugh often, love much

    accidents do happen.

    driving is non-contact, but your shafted to the bone with insurance.
  18. puma

    puma Valued Member

    And they aren't taught properly and have no control. It isn't just for that anyway. Anyone can fall over and stuff like that. You have to be covered.
  19. prowla

    prowla Valued Member

    What - no contact at all?
  20. Jaae

    Jaae Valued Member

    Plenty of contact.............................with your credit card !!!

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