Gikan ryu

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by jameswhelan, Jul 26, 2012.

  1. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    And if you want to continue posting on MAP, then cut out the bitching.

    You both know the forum rules.
     
  2. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Having "access to the source" guarantees nothing, obviously!

    Or do you think that everyone who trains with a world-class boxing coach will get good enough to win at the Olympics?

    The student needs ability aswell as access.
     
  3. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    A good coach will always improve the ability of any student who does what he/she tells them to do.
     
  4. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Gapjumper posted

    Ok glad we agree

    Of course not BUT a world class boxing coach won't give a bad student a certificate and grade suggesting that not only is that students really good but they are at a level whereby they should teach others.

    Sure a student needs ability and a good coach will make sure the student will improve no matter what that ability, or lack of it, not just send them away with a high grade.
     
  5. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Kagete posted

    Of course I realise that its just that the 99.9% of the Bujinkan don't. In fact you have probably illustrated quite well why I am not a member of the Bujinkan.

    I like to know my grades are something i've worked for and are worthy of not just because I turned up in Japan.
     
  6. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    What are those grades?
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2012
  7. benkyoka

    benkyoka one million times

    For the sake of argument, how do people like Richard Van Donk and Papasan have access to the source? They don't speak Japanese. They are like most everyone else. They hang around the source. They've just been hanging around longer.
     
  8. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    Why does it matter to you? Again, there is a logical gap between your own practice and that of others. The people who suck do so not because of Hatsumi sensei. This art, whether you like it or not, was never and never can be intended to be transmitted to everyone who walks into the dōjō. Everyone is responsible for their own practice in the Bujinkan and in this art. Like Sven-Eric once said, "it's your ass out on the street, not Sōke's". If you don't like it? Fine. Who cares?

    It's up to you to polish whatever you receive until it becomes something effective that you can use. Hatsumi let's everyone take seeds from him, but it is up to the individual to care for it until it grows and becomes a beautiful flower.

    To me, what is important is that what I practice on a daily basis is a part of the chain of transmission from the source, and that it is effective when practiced correctly and diligently. That it works against not just compliant practitioners of the Bujinkan but against any style and any man. And this you try by testing yourself against others.

    It was perhaps wrong of me to introduce the word 'suck'. Let's put it this way. I do not wish to move like Manaka sensei. I want to move like my teacher. It can't get any more rational than that.

    I don't understand. Why are you giving me advice on which organization I should belong to and with whom I should practice? I already told you that I am more than content with what I have and with my teacher.

    If I wanted to move like Manaka sensei, I would try to practice under him.

    Why this sudden aggression?

    What do you mean by "perceived"? Is just a perception that Manaka sensei is no longer practicing under Hatsumi sensei? Or are you talking about something else?

    Why bring up the Jinenkan?

    As for lineage, I am not part of the Sōke lineage, naturally. But one can still be part of the chain of transmission from master to student.

    Full transmission, yes. But i don't think one should practice under a master with the sole purpose of becoming the next Sōke. That's not a good motivation and will lead nowhere.

    I don't think PR will become the next Sōke, and I don't think he believes so either. But he is in the chain of transmission and, apparently, high up in it (deshi of one of Hatsumi sensei's deshi).

    I believe he is and I have reason to believe so.

    I am saying that is all that's necessary for the survival and existence of the art.

    Skill, knowledge, personal relationship with Sōke and his most senior student, you name it. In my opinion, from what I have seen, no one else compares. Why do you care? If you are happy with your training, good. If not, do something about it.

    Why on earth would I look to Doug Wilson instead of Kacem? No disrespect towards Mr Wilson, whom I have no relationship with, but why on earth would I look to him??? God, seriously. Have you seen what he did in human weapon? Have you seen him move? Why would I want to be his student?

    And why would you argue that he is closer to the source??? Do you think any fat Japanese who goes to honbu every class is even closer then?

    Do you think Akimoto Fumio was closer to Takamatsu sensei than Hatsumi sensei? What logic are you using?

    Okay. Good for you.

    I already told you.

    I have found a good soup and I am eating that soup.

    I don't understand your agenda against me here at all. If you lived close by we could meet and practice together and you could show me where my practice is lacking. Right now you are just complaining about the structure of an organization where it is up to the individual to take care of his own practice. If you cannot carry your own weight, then it's a big shame.
     
  9. benkyoka

    benkyoka one million times

    Having separated yourself from Japan you don't get grades of any kind, but you don't get any knowledge either. That's why I still would want to be part of the organization. Not because of the worthless grades and titles but because it gives me a chance to access the knowledge. You get neither.
     
  10. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Hi Will

    Normally I understand where you're coming from, but it's news to me that Soke had a most senior student. Where's this from?

    Thanks
     
  11. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    On grades / quality control there's been far too much circular debate about this already in my view

    Mostly it's raised by those outside the art and I understand why. I respect that they don't want to be part of the buj, but I doubt that we can ever reconcile people's different positions on this

    It's not going to change & the buj will always be sink or swim in nature
     
  12. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    Dunc, unless I am mistaken, Ishizuka sensei is Sōke's current most senior student, beginning his practice around 1964 I believe (someone correct me if I am wrong on the year). I believe Senō sensei came shortly after.
     
  13. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Hi Will

    Thanks for the clarification

    I think, as westerners there are many opportunities for us to misunderstand Japanese culture so personally I tend to avoid using terms like that unless they are used by Soke and the Japanese Shihan
     
  14. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Benkyoka posted


    Then why has Hatsumi given them 15th dans:bang:

    From what you have said above most of the 15th dans aren't getting knowledge either.

    Based on the fact that grade is not an indication that you re getting the real stuff from the source how do you know you are getting the real stuff?

    Actually I get invited to seminars to train with people who have been at the source all the while and i'm not in the organisation, but I don't often go because apparantly (As you have said) even if they have a high grade its no guarantee that they know anything or indeed even have access to the source.
     
  15. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Big Will posted

    Hmm, I wonder if Doug Wilson has access to the source?
     
  16. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    The way some describe it the only way you get close to the source of true ninjutsu skill is to live in Hatsumi's pocket 24/7.
    Makes me wonder, if that is the case, what was the point in founding an international organisation with students and representatives in multiple countries?
    If skill in this art is so quckly diluted then how does one ever go about gaining any skill in it?
     
  17. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Ahh easy, you have to be one of the chosen few who Hatsumi teaches the real stuff too.

    The problem is everyone thinks they are the chosen few.
     
  18. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Isn't martial/combat skill actually free floating rather than derived from a central or single source?
    A good instructor can help you find the way but actually if you put the work in yourself the skill is there to be found independently of that?
    Which is why separate countries can train for Judo perhaps independently but all produce good fighters?
    Because the skill of putting someone on their **** is open to anyone.

    I can see how being close to Hatsumi enables you to learn BBT as a historical entity but actual combat effectiveness is independent of that to a large degree?
     
  19. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Many many variables, yes.

    Nobody can expect to turn up and be made into a great martial artist, or to think because they pay for the lesson that they are owed brilliance with no effort by themselves.

    Alot of people don't "get" the Bujinkan org, even to people who spend a few years studying (and so think they must surely have seen everything by now and it doesn't work, because THEY can't make it work) or many years attending occasional seminars.

    Could you beome a good fighter without "access"? Yes of course

    Would you be good at this art? No

    If you are good do you need this art? Nope



    I don't "get" the Bujinkan...but I have a funny feeling that is the whole point and that is just yet another lesson...

    Know what I mean anyone?
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2012
  20. EWBell

    EWBell Valued Member

    Let's put it this way, Hatsumi is the sole inheritor of the traditions he was made Soke of...except for a few ryu-ha Takamatsu Sensei also made others Soke. There were also traditions that Hatsumi wasn't made the Soke of that come from Takamatsu Sensei.
     

Share This Page