No I won't name any kata. I can read enough to know it is Gikan Ryu. It was not Koto Ryu with Gikan Ryu kanji, it was completely different. The kata were completely different also. I know what Koto ryu looks like and would recognise the kata if it was. What you folks in the Genbukan don't seem to understand is that Hatsumi sensei received everything from Takamatsu sensei in person and in writting. All the kuden are written down. All the ryuha are written down in detail, including the way to practice the different ryuha, the different weapons and the sections that are not so public and that the most people like Sato Kimbei, Ueno and Tanemura didn't receive like Gyokko Ryu Tojutsu for instance. This includes all the weapons for all the ryuha. As all the ryu-ha have weapons in them. The Gikan Ryu I saw was in a thick densho that dealt with different styles of koppojutsu from the Toda familie, I saw sections there on Togakure Ryu koppojutsu, Gikan Ryu koppojutsu and Kumogakure Ryu koppojutsu amongst many other things I previously didn't know existed. But I'm sure you think some of those don't exist because Tanemura sensei didn't receive them and they are not in the list of kata that everybody received. The thruth as I see it is that Hatsumi received more then all the others. He received everything. The proof for me is that he has documents and kata that nobody of Takamatsu senseis other 'students' have received like Gyokko Ryu Tojutsu and iai, Koto ryu tojutsu and Iai, Shinden Fudo Ryu Iai etc. And everytime students of the Genbukan say that these things don't exist they damage Tanemura's claim that he has received full transmission. So go ahead and claim it doesn't exist. Enjoy your training, Ferry
Come on guys enough with the "Highlander" references. The first film was great, and it went down hill from then on really. A bit like the art of ninjutsu. By the way someone mentioned about whether Hatsumi has actually shown Gikan Ryu. Well i'm no expert but on those videos that started the whole debate here theres a couple that remind me of one of the techniques. It goes like this. Uke throws front punch, tori drifts back slighly inside the punch. Making shikan ken uke attacks under the rib cage with a double punch. Hatsumi explained this was to cause the internal organs to shift upwards. To be precice one punch is above left leg other is in kidneys. Both arms raise up like in hoko no kamae and chin catches arm. Tori then does zenpo ukemi sending uke down on his back. This was only one of the techniques taught. I have these on Video and as I said Hatsumi clearly states they are Gikan Ryu. As for the asayama Ichiden ryu confusion. This happened because Tanemura had 72 techniques for shodan (Could be nidan) on a sheet. Many of the techniques we had heard about but there was 24 on there that we hadn't. Some one put two and two together and made 5 and must have used the logic that because he didnt know them they must be Gikan Ryu. The guy was IIRC Ken Harding. I e mailed him in about 1994/5 to tell him he was wrong.
if u cant name the kata it damages your claim but for the 100th time i never claimed to know wht hatsumi has and even if he does or does not most of the bujinkan will ever know or c it and no need to be so smug about the tojutsu because from what i have saw of bikenjutsu in the bujinkan they still could not cut their way out of a wet paper bag with a chainsaw.
Hey Garth, that happend actually way before, because Ihad a manual in the bujinkan back in 89 from a friend of mine who had went to Japan and got it from a certain European in relation to the Gikan/AIR confusion, so Ken was probably just like everyone else back then on that, not really his fault. Yes tanemura had a VHS tape out then also of his shodan level that included AIR with other schools that people thought was Gikan ryu. I think the issue with the hatsumi videos on Gikan ryu is that even tanemura has said several times that a particular move was Gikan ryu also but to this point the actual kata and structure knowledge of the school has been been pretty much nill to this point. Garth, I love Highlander to, Duncan and Conner both, I was mad when the Kurgan killed Sean Connery, LOL.
That's why in the Bujinkan Kouryuu Dojo we start with dry paper bags - the wet ones tend to stick the the blade and things get all messy...........
Seriously? What does it matter if 99,99999% of the people in the Bujinkan suck? The only thing that matters is the transmission of the art from sōke to a select few, and the chain of transmission that follows from that. It's the 0,00001% that practice correctly that matter.
! Electric - but the kamae and tai sabaki used are different. It looks a little like Hasso no kamae but with bent out feet. I need to ask Garth if he can get me the kanji for my notes...........
maybe Will..maybe not...i am gonna leave it at that guys. You know I respect your views and why, I am just saying I am proud of what the Genbukan is doing now. Enjoy your training and hope you are well Will.
That's good and you should be. From what I've seen of the Genbukan there is a lot to be proud of and that goes for the Jinenkan also. (We were invited to an event by a local school and they were serious martial artists and not to mention a class act.) Personally I'm proud of my training in the Bujinkan and have enjoyed my experiences. Yes there are a lot of things I shake my head at sometimes especially on the internet and we certainly like to have fun at some of these folks expense; however that doesn't negate our personal experiences. I know your response wasn't directed at me but from reading your posts I respect your views too and there is a lot of opportunity for misinterpretation on these forums especially when it appears many of us are so passionate about what we do.
Seriously? Are you going to talk down to a koryu practitioner for not divulging elements of his art online? No, Tanemura Sensei is doing a better job, SELLING the gikan ruy kata in bookform... Oh yes, I know, the books contain intended faults, but why, pray, publish them then? Just to show off? Very interesting that you feel the need to switch to insult mode when this subject comes up. Regards, Tom.
I seem to recalling a few years ago that that was basically the whole point of Hatsumi releasing the Shinken Shiraha Dome video.
not exactly, but believe what youwant tom...enjoy your training....you can speak in a.way you know without revealing everyone knows that..
Please avoid using text speak. Not everyone reading your post uses English as a first language. We need to avoid any confusion. Thanks. Simon.
I didn't say I can't, I said I won't.... Besides that I don't care about what anybody else thinks about what I wrote. I know the truth of what I saw and that is enough for me and my training. I like both the way the jinenkan and the genbukan structure things, I like structure and unless you dig for the structure that is hard to find in the BJK. I don't believe the kancho of the GBK and the JNK have the true line of the transmission nor the movement of Takamatsu sensei. So I don't train with them but I think they are doing some things very well, like the way they run their organisations. I also like a lot of the GBK and JNK members here and in other dark corners of the world ;-) There is a lot of crap in the Bujinkan but its like a disfunctional family, They are crazy but you love them anyway. And there are family members that are excellent Martial Artists. Freedom seems to make both heroes and fools... Take care, Ferry
I like this So this is my experience (westerner buj): A few times in the early 90s, typically in smaller sessions, in Japan Soke showed us some techniques from the Gikan Ryu. However, in his usual style he didn’t really show the detailed kata as such. He really only uses a kata as a starting point to communicate the core concept or important point that it is trying to teach. (He never repeats himself, but manages to keep a kata alive/useful). Generally speaking nowadays he may show an idea, exercise, or movement and explain “this is Gikan Ryu” or similar. When I’ve asked the shihan (which isn’t very often as I’m still trying to figure out the “Big 6” schools) they will sometimes show a kata, explain a core concept or point of difference and so on. So unlike the “Big 6” I don’t have a structured understanding of the curriculum, but I have some useful tips/concepts and several interesting kata/movements. One shihan explained that Takamatsu sensei advised Hatsumi sensei not to give out everything until late in life as there will always be people who’ll take what you give them and use it against you. So he has always held back 30% To be honest I’m more than happy with what we have open access to in the buj. I’ve got plenty of material to be working on and even more “Principles to put in practise” that my plate’s full for the moment. Trying to cram in another school might make me feel that I’ve progressed, but I suspect that it’ll detract from my progression at the moment. So I don’t know if there are X Y Z levels with written kata etc in the Buj, but I don’t think that’s particularly relevant for the reasons outlined above. Maybe some people are asking the question is “Did Hatsumi get everything from Takamatsu?” It seems to me that the evidence of their relationship and training together would suggest that Takamatsu sensei put a lot of effort into Hatsumi sensei’s development. It would therefore seem strange for him not to finish the job. I’m sure that if Takamatsu sensei put a similar amount of effort into other people’s development then evidence of this will come to light over time. As an aside I think that the schools that Takamatsu sensei was soke of form a subset of the information that he had to pass on, which may be the source of some misunderstandings / confusion. However, I’m sure that the debate will continue for a generation or so and it'll have no impact on those of us in either org who just want to become as good as we possibly can.
Ferry, I think he said if "you" cant in an general sense and was not speaking of you specifically also as he stated you can speak in a way that is understood you know what you are talking about in a way that everyone can not understand instead of just empty promises (not saying you again ok) As far as the movement, well that is a matter of opinion i think, i hear alot of jkan and gkan people say otherwise as far as the "true line" movement also and last with the freedom issue, I agree that freedom can both be a bad and good thing depending on the person.
Here's a YouTube Gikan Ryu video posted by the Genbukan Honbu staff. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQaX4zB967Q"]Gikan Ryu Koppo-Jutsu - YouTube[/ame]
