No need to be so aggressive. For me its fine that Tanemura releases information but it has 0% effect on my own training. I know next to nothing about said school and I dont care. To be honest Im glad if I dont have to reserve space in my brain for more ryu-ha. I have quite enough material to practise for the next few years anyway. Still, I dont think the controversy had been fully settled when it comes to how much training Sato Kimbei did recieve from Takamatsu sensei. If someone cares to inform me I would be happy. Sandstorm, maybe you can enlight me? Regards / Skuggvarg
Strangley it wasnt too long ago Mr Hatsumi was filmed stating that he was the only student of Takamatsu. Swings and roundabouts hey.
I dont think Sandstorm was being aggresive and based on what Ihave seen of Gikan ryu, it could not have.been mail ordered anymore than Hatsumis ryuha. Furthermore I have never heard Tanemura Soke say he had trained many times with Takamatsu.
there is no controversy. Sato Kinbeis was made soke of gikan ryu by Takamatsu and as far as i know that was a rumor second hand from bujinkanites.
From what I've seen it's some cool little tricks, some exotic kamae, things like that. I think everyone is curious about it because it's mysterious, like some secret exploding heart death palm strikes or something. It pales in comparison to the Kuki arts and Takagi Yoshin ryu, but yeah, I'd also like to see more of it. I think the history of the school is probably the most interesting, in my opinion.
Much like the training you have received is between you and your teacher, the same applies to the training Sato Kinbei Sensei received from Takamatsu Sensei. Obviously there are people who will try and discredit anyone being a "true student" of Takamatsu Sensei who isn't named Hatsumi. The fact is they cannot say one way or the other, because quite simply they do not know. All we have is the traditions that were passed on, and from my experience that is proof positive.
I am struggling to understand how your final sentence gels with the substantial portion of your post?
Meaning that the ryu-ha passed from Takamatsu Sensei to Sato Kinbei Sensei were not "mail-order" martial arts like some believe. Anyone who has experienced Ishitani-den TYR, for instance, would understand that it had to be passed on in person.
@ Fusen and Tonryu Regarding Tanemura saying he trained with Takamatsu many times in the early days, he did. I was there and he said so. I even remembering him saying that when he saw Takamatsu with kyoketsu he went to practice it and it took him a week to learn to make a knot as one casts out the rope. I also remember him telling me over dinner that when Takamatsu was giving out Menkyos to his varoius students hatsumi ran to him to say "please give me Menkyo Kaiden". Takamatsu gave Hatsumi a mixture of stuff from the various schools, and it was generally agreed that Hatsumi should have Menkyo because although he had not mastered all the stuff he was of the correct age to carry on the tradition. Tanemura was too young. Apparantly Tanemura used to be Uke for Hatsumi many times when he was training with Takamatsu hense why he trained with Takamatsu many times. Now you may not believe this but this was spoken by Tanemura either face to face or to the general seminar members back in the late 1980s early 90s. By the way talking of the Sato Kimbei guys I once asked them (the Japanese) about Tanemuras claims. They said something like "Oh thats Tanemuras style" and laughed a little.
The fact that there exists a controversy regarding Takamatsu sensei and his transmission to Ueno Takeshi and Satô Kinbei cannot be denied, and I think it should be discussed without people getting angry. Obviously, a lot has been said at seminars and in private by Hatsumi sensei and Tanemura Sensei. Hatsumi for instance has openly claimed that Ueno Takashi did not practice at all with Takamatsu sensei, and various people have seen letters written by Takamatsu sensei to Hatsumi sensei, where he claims that he only sold the written transmission and documents to Ueno and Satô. For a man like Satô Kinbei, who had more martial art styles under his belt than most other masters in history, it would be easy to learn a lot from written transmission. And as Garth pointed out, Tanemura on the other hand has claimed a lot of personal training with Takamatsu sensei, and has bad mouthed Hatsumi sensei. The fact that he barely mentions Hatsumi sensei when discussing his training history is rather telling. Hatsumi sensei received the title of Sôke in Gikan Ryû from Takamatsu sensei, but so did Satô Kinbei. Both Hatsumi sensei and Tanemura sensei claim to be the only true Sôke in Gikan Ryû. Here are some snippets of what is written in the "Gikan Ryû Kirigami Densho" linked in this thread: So taking into account everything in this thread, and in others regarding this matter, it's no point denying that it's a fishy business. First of all, the written records of Gikan Ryû that were passed on to Satô were written by Takamatsu Sensei. So if it has been transmitted orally up until that point (which it was, according to hearsay, and is hinted at in the Genbukan published document), the fact that he received written records is really moot as far as full transmission goes. Genbukan people are being told by Tanemura that he is the only Sôke of Gikan Ryû - or rather, the only sole inheritor of all the written techniques. Obviously, I see these alternatives: 1) Satô Kinbei learned Gikan Ryû in full from Takamatsu sensei (even though no photographic evidence of their practice has ever been shown). 2) Takamatsu sensei gave Satô Kinbei written transmission of Gikan Ryû, which Satô in turn studied and practiced, and transmitted to Tanemura sensei. In my opinion, this is an interesting, although very controversial, subject to discuss and look into. Obviously, someone was lying - and this is not surprising, since people have been lying since the beginning of mankind. Nothing written above is meant as any form of disrespect towards anyone in any organization.
So he was speaking figuratively rather than literally on the number of times trained with Takamatsu based on the fact he was uke for Hatsumi during that time, sure I knew that heard it several times. LOL yes as far as the Sato students comment Japanese people or even alot of people in general will give a little smug chuckle and comment when their groups are not the same and usually do not openly critic others in public.
There are two sides two every story and hatsumi has bad mouthed Tanemura several several times in written publications and the fact he is questioning Ueno and Sato Kinbeis training only after they have passed and never to their face is also telling.Are there pictures of Toda and Takamatsu training? How many pictures in public are there even of Takamatsu as a young man? Does that mean he was born old as in his pics with Hatsumi, etc? Will, no disrespect to you for sure, but I personally do not believe what you are saying because you are merely parroting what Hatsumi and your teacher kacem has said and even in his own book about this subject and to be honest noone really knows. I do know the Genbukan is the one openly teaching the kata of this school to the public now and the bujinkan is not. Who do you believe the Hatfields or the McCoys?, Hope you get that ha ha. Take care, not trying to be "aggresive" today
Your comment reads like: 1. Nobody knows for certain because they just don't know and haters gonna hate. and. 2. I know because I KNOW you know, no taking away from that! So its kinda a contradictory message you give. I don't know why Boojers would care/worry about the source of your art, it has nothing to do with them and they have much more important things to worry about, such as not being completely crap at their own training. And, on that note I don't see a lot of interest in it, so maybe the 'don't say its ordered from eBay' - is a little premature, though ironic in that now it is for sale online and therefore a new generation of Sokes could be created (somewhat..) Also Stop your silliness. You say you worry about what the other team is going to say about it, then you act like that. Don't worry about what they are being shown and worry about your own understanding of it.
Tonryu posted I think your arguing semantics here, but in a way I agree, but when on my web site I said I had trained with Hatsumi, people pointed out that I had only actually attended seminars and not actually trained with him. I wish I had said I was speaking figuratively rather than literally lol
Sandstorm, I completely understand your position and where you are coming from. No disrespect taken at all However, asking for photographic evidence of Toda sensei with Takamatsu sensei is a whole other ball game. As everyone knows, photos were not as common or easy back then. As you yourself point out, there are very few of the young Takamatsu sensei. However, Satō Kinbei has photos taken with almost everyone it seems. Those that are missing are Takamatsu sensei and, maybe, Santa Claus For someone who met with so many different masters and shook hands and took photos, it is a bit strange that he did not take any with Takamatsu sensei. All other students of Takamatsu sensei do have photographic or even video evidence. Except for Ueno Takeshi of course. As for parroting... looking at how Tanemura bluntly states that he is the only sōke of Gikan Ryū and constantly masks his extensive training with Hatsumi sensei, I think parroting is somewhat done from both sides. As for Gikan Ryū kata taught in the Genbukan, I don't dispute it. The question is rather were did those kata come from, and for what purpose? From the very little (and I do mean very little - even less than very little) that I have heard about the Gikan Ryū transmitted to Hatsumi sensei, it doesn't really correspond to the "Kata" videos that are now being sold in the link in this thread. Perhaps Tanemura sensei is releasing it publicly to blow smoke to all those who yearn for Gikan Ryū kata to look at, or the content of the transmissions are different. In any case, it's interesting to discuss, even though - like you said - we will likely never find out the "truth".
