Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by jameswhelan, Jul 26, 2012.
Some kata from Gikan ryu:
I liked this part: "If you would like to master or train..."
I haven't downloaded any of the Genbukan materials from that new site, I've still got my hands full with the DVDs I already own lol.
Being as it is available for public download, I would wager there are some major differences between what is shown in the videos, and what will be taught at the Tai Kai.
Sounds like a bet...
Probably. And I understand, some things you should not give to the masses without control. But why then publish a book about it? why not just show it at the Taikai?
It is just the kirigami level densho anyway, and a good deal of the forms in there have as their description "Kuden," so it isn't like it reveals much anyway. Also take into account this is really aimed at Genbukan students, but maybe Tanemura Soke thought he would give a little of it for everyone. Up until now how many can say they have definitely seen anything Gikan Ryu? Now people can at least know it isn't a "phantom martial art."
Gikan ryu is out there.
In the Booj people just tend not to point at it and say "this is gikan ryu".
Or maybe they think it might be Gikan Ryu.
'tis also possible
And with this version of GKR and the taikai version (IF they are different) the same stands for Genbukan members too, no?
Besides, is it really that people need another art to learn or should they concentrate on just getting better...Surely nobody wants to be a "kata collector"
(yes I know some real bad stuff hides behind "don't be a kata collector", but I mean otherwise...)
The printed and video material in the Genbukan often have things in them that are not the way they are actually taught. One could call them "errors put in on purpose," which is why I said there would be a difference in the first place. There won't be an IF about it, there will be differences. This is an attempt to keep the true transmissions as they should be, teacher to student. Like I said, this kirigami densho and accompanying videos are geared for Genbukan folks, who know what to expect from such things anyway. If people outside the organization get it, well it turns into a nice glimpse at something they might not have seen anything of.
Gikan Ryu is probably not going to be something that will be taught openly after this Tai Kai in the fall, and I think it was stated as such in the original announcement of the Tai Kai. To my knowledge, only one of our shihan has ranking in it, and that is Tanemura Soke's son, Kotaroh Shihan, who has menkyo kaiden and I believe it will stay that way. The training of the shoden patterns at the Tai Kai is a gift for Genbukan students. I wouldn't count on anything past that.
Good job we don't take Booj vids on face value then...
So this is the Gikan Ryû that Tanemura sensei learned from Satô Kinbei, right?
Yes Will, that is correct.
Why do I get the feeling your going to try and argue that it might not be the 'true' gikan ryu
What do you mean by going to try and argue? Since Mr BigWill has ties with the Bujinkan it is a very legitimate question that im sure more people are interested in knowing the answer to. If it is "the true gikan ryu" or not is something we wont reach conclusion over the forum Im sure.
Regards / Skuggvarg
The Gikan ryu has nothing to do with it being part of the Genbukan or Bujinkan, it is what it is, its the ryu-ha period, two lines of it passed from Takamatsu to Sato to Tanemura.
No drama, no politics, the structure of the school, the kamae, the kihon, the kata the kuden, etc, I really dont see a grey area here.
I don't think anyone is saying the bujinkan or Hatsumi does or doesnt have whatever, I just think this is something Sato Kinbei kept very quiet about he received from Takamatsu and duh believe you me it wasnt fed exed, ups, or e-mailed to him, its the real deal.
Surely, no one has been living under a rock for the last 20 years or so and every one knows by now that the bujinkan believes Hatsumi is a Soke of this school and the Genbukan belives that Tanemura is and that Hatsumi only received an addition on his Kotoh ryu scroll from Takamatsu saying he could claim Gikan ryu based on his the Kotoh ryu scroll, but in fact had never been shown or learned the patterns and that was only given to Sato after Akimoto died, the issue was even brought up in a japanese court in conjunction with some other things.
In reality who knows for sure and who cares? Best to be open minded and learn no matter the source if you want the knowledge.
Its really kind of funny, I dare say to many people could name any kata on the globe from this ryu-ha before Tanemura put this stuff out, but now suddenly everyone will say they knew it all along. Sure people may have learned a few movements here and there...a kamae or a strike or even some sabaki and said, "oh this is Gikan ryu" but dont kid yourself, noone even remotely knew the structure of it like Kotoh ryu which is so familiar to most of the X-Kan.
In regard to Hatsumi not knowing the patterns of this school, i'm not too sure. I remember him teaching Gikan ryu quite in depth in a 1995 (Or it could have been 1992) I even have it on video.
I remember he showed a particular way of doing yoko aruki to the side when a punch came in and using hira ichimonji to take someone to teh ground. He also taught particular ways of punching using both fists at once into the kidneys and leaping away. He also taught quite a few kicks from this school, and yes he does actually say "Gikan Ryu"
The whole thread has been talking about how the second hand information is usually deliberately innacurate... How do you know what actual Gikan ryu looks like, Garth?
I Don't i'm just saying that Hatsumi stated he was teaching Gikan Ryu in 1992/95
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