generating force

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by cloudz, Jun 8, 2015.

  1. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    Embra,

    You actually make far more references to 'Chi' than everyone else put together! :D
     
  2. embra

    embra Valued Member

    I guess I have my cheesy moments - but I probably made more posts than anyone else - and almost certainly stating words to the effect of 'get beyond Chi'.
     
  3. embra

    embra Valued Member

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phL9BcpBoLE"]Cheese Monster 30Eng HD.mpg - YouTube[/ame]
     
  4. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    The Taiji classics state that "too much preoccupation with Chi leads to stagnation".

    You have been warned! (Although I'm not sure whether the authors had cheese-related videos in mind when they wrote that!) :D
     
  5. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    So let me see if I understand you. You are suggesting that because the person has a wind up and then uses this to drive the fist that this makes it internal rather than external. So anything that uses wind up to load the tissues to get a spring effect to help power the technique is internal? I don't know anyone who punches without the use of the body but if you want to look purely at rotational moments to drive things then my first thought would be to look at a very external style, Choy Li Fut. It's got a lot of torque built up from winding the body to drive the speed and power of techniques. Waist drives many techniques. Am I reading what you have said incorrectly?

    LFD
     
  6. zombiekicker

    zombiekicker bagpuss

    I like it here
     
  7. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    What I see there is classic Karate hip use - energy "spiralling" up the spine from the hips, and engaging the shoulders once the rotation reaches them. This is different to most Chinese rotational force I've seen, which uses the spine as a single pivot, rather than a timed chain of pivots travelling up to the shoulders (with the notable exception of some Tai Chi "whippy" types).

    This is what I think of when someone says Karate to me, in terms of punching technique, 0'45" into the video, and I see the same basic mechanic going on in the Peter Consterdine video you posted:

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1PZbInSsyc"]Basic Karate Punches: Chokuzuki - Straight punch - YouTube[/ame]
     
  8. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    No not meant to be internal or external. I'm saying that there are mechanics to generate power. These mechanics are independent of labels such as internal or external. For example, a boxing uppercut primarily uses the rising power generated from the hips and legs. A boxing uppercut is NOT the only striking technique that uses rising power generated from the hips and legs, and boxing is not the only system (whether labeled internal or external) to use this mechanic.

    In addition, techniques consist of combinations of these mechanics. The boxing uppercut also includes power generated from a weight shift. Creating torque by leading with the waist is another mechanic that can be added for more power.

    Weight shift as a power generating mechanic is pretty universal (e.g., does not matter if the system is labeled as internal or external, it is used in all). However, leading with the waist is not one of the power generating mechanics that is really talked about in boxing, but it is talked about in many internal styles.

    The main point is that no technique uses all power generating mechanics, but instead, a technique uses a combination of a few of these primarily. Usually one or two primary mechanics combined with several secondary mechanics. Many of the secondary mechanics, like creating torque at the waist, take a longer time to hardwire the body to use effectively... this makes it one of the mechanics that is often neglected in external styles.

    Besides the karate video not using the proper pivot points, in reference to the creating torque at the waist mechanic... comparing the karate punch video to what Peter Consterdine is doing is like comparing a batter in baseball that can barely clear the infield to one that can hit home runs consistently. Or like loading a cannon, but in the karate video, you are only using half the gun powder compared to the other.

    In the karate video, the torque from the waist is much less because it is only using half of the range of motion for this mechanic to generate power. The karate punch is only using the second half, which is a pulling force from the opposite side of the body.

    One of the big keys to look for is the connection between the side of the hip and the elbow. In the karate video, the elbow is brought behind the hip so there is virtually no connection between the hip and elbow until almost half-way through the punching technique. By this time, you have lost all the power from the waist.

    In the Peter Consterdine video, the elbow is in front of the hip and at the point the side of the hip reaches in line with the elbow there is a connection. In this manner, a majority of the torque from the waist is transferred efficiently into the punching technique to generate power. Easiest way to train this mechanic for beginners is to just never allow the elbow to go behind the hip.

    Another big difference is in hand position. Hands down and relaxed at the side, versus in a high chamber. I could go on on how these differences affect which power generating mechanics are going to be best utilized, but at this point I don't think it would add much value.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2015
  9. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Ummm... do I misunderstand, or did you just give examples of comparing the same mechanics to show that different mechanics are being used? :confused:

    the krotty vid was just the first one I found that had the waist-leading straight punch. I wasn't interested in comparing other aspects.
     
  10. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    The karate punch in the video is only showing less than 50% of the mechanics because it is missing most of the connection between how to transfer the power from the waist to the punch.

    The double-hip motion used in the Peter Consterdine video is showing about 90% of the mechanics. There are still some details that could make it better, but at the same time I'm not saying I could do better.

    I think you may be taking leading with the waist very literally. The principle of independent motion (the waist moves independently of the upper and lower bases) is all it really means. The specific mechanics of how to apply this principle for power generation is not completely seen by external movements. The external movements start with moving the hips and shoulders together while never allowing the elbows to go behind the hips. Then learning to open/close the hip (e.g. something like the double-hip movement but in a more subtle manner). What is not so easy to see is the connection between the different parts. What is virtually invisible is slight changes in the direct the belly button is moving and the timing involved. IME.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2015
  11. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Sure, but that is all irrelevant to my point: rotation can be used to twist the spine sequentially, or rotation can be used with the spine as a fixed pivot - the axis around which the entire upper body rotates in unison.
     
  12. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    ugh..
    don't get me started about the huge amount of muggy crap TCC videos there are on the net. I couldn't watch that guy past 10 seconds.

    A proper/ good example of Dantien driven movement/ power is someone like Chen Yu. I would be quite surprised if you found many from another style moving and generating power the way he does. Particularly non Chinese ones. There are a few CMA that have it/ the training that goes with it though.
     
  13. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Ah.

    The first bit of the video is a beginner student. Try watching when the guy who starts off holding the pad demonstrates to his student... which is probably after 20 seconds or something.

    I didn't post it as a paragon of style, merely as a demonstration of principles (regardless of the quality). But yeah, the student at the beginning doesn't display those principles.
     
  14. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Interesting. When he rotates in this video, he does use the "double hip" (EDIT: except for a downward palm strike at around 1 minute, where he does not counter-rotate first. He also alternates between spine-as-single-pivot and the upward-moving-chain of pivots thing.):

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGRXaYbUCs4"]Master Chen Yu - Tui Shou Applications / МаÑтер ЧÑнь Юй - Туйшоу - YouTube[/ame]

    I've seen other Tai Chi peeps not use that, so I guess there is no such thing as a universal principle of rotation to generate force in Tai Chi.

    To be honest, the different Tai Chi styles use the body as differently as separate arts.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2015
  15. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Not meant to make a joke of this. I'm serious. Are you meaning something like a dog shaking to get dry? The dog shaking is close to what I'm talking about.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJeuTAButtk"]Time Warp - Dog Shaking - YouTube[/ame]

    And further along these line, for the body to create torque, the entire upper body cannot be rotating in the same direction, you must move parts in opposite directions to create this torque. However, this is not twisting the spine in sequence. It is twisting in unison.

    I would describe this as spirals along the vertical plane that makes the upper body rotate along the horizontal plane in unison. In other words, what you might equate to sequential rotation along the horizontal plane, I see as the body moving in unison along the horizontal plane but sequentially down the spine (like the dog shaking).
     
  16. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    ok, he was better than the first guy lol.

    I'm not really that into that much hip as he is - it tends to indicate driving up from the legs. Nothing really wrong with that. I like to lead all my movement and power generation from my core/centre. I think if you drive more from the core your hip tends to travel a bit less than his does in the clip.

    But look, there's only so much you can really tell from a video - those are just the impression I get from watching it. So don't take it as gospel, he could be driving it from his dantien a lot more than I can see.

    Rebel also makes a really good point about opposing forces. That's a bit of a "secret" when it comes to making a lot of things work in TCC - or shall we say making them better. The use and balancing of opposing forces or "yin-yang" is everywhere and it can really make the difference. "where there is up, there is down, where there is left there is right.."

    Chen Zonghua is another decent TCC teacher who has a lot of video talking about and showing Body Mechanics
     
  17. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    That video is actually a really good demonstration.

    I think when you say "torque", you are actually talking about creating elastic potential energy by counter-rotation, such as wringing a towel (erm... but a rubber towel...). As in the dog-shaking video.

    Torque is simply angular momentum around a point. So by rotating the whole upper body as one unit, which is using the angular momentum of the legs around the point of the spine, you are still producing torque.

    Both ways can generate power. The counter-rotating method potentially produces more power, but also takes more time to perform and requires preparatory movement before the strike.

    I don't understand your distinction here.
     
  18. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Fair enough.

    The thing that stuck out to me about Chen Yu was that he appears to use the groin tendons in a much more dramatic fashion than others I've seen (qua?).

    I've actually been watching a few Chen Zonghua videos. His style uses that type of tendon-locking strength quite a lot while keeping the torso very still. It's interesting that his take is about separation, rather than unity - although they are two sides of the same coin. I haven't found a video of him punching though, except for one or two in forms.
     
  19. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    No worries. I don't fully understand it either, so what I write doesn't really matter as long as we can communicate.

    I only meant that when looking at rotation of the upper body we tend to focus on the visible horizontal movement, but what is going on vertically is just as important.
     
  20. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Cloudz, getting back to other arts using the same movements:

    It's not that I think people from other arts necessarily use all of these ways of moving at a high level of refinement (as you would expect - you refine most that which you practice most). But rather that, given enough time, many people from other arts show varying degrees of refinement of some of these ways of moving - whichever ones occur as a natural response to practice.

    I think where we seem to differ is that I believe anyone, particularly with a mind to sensitivity and exploration, can develop these ways of moving - if their practice gives them opportunity to develop them.

    I think that training format is everything, and it is possible to bring these skills out of people without explicit instruction. That does not mean that it will be as refined as those who specialise in it.
     

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