Genbukan Koryu Karate

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Bronze Statue, Feb 18, 2007.

  1. Bronze Statue

    Bronze Statue Valued Member

    How does Genbukan Koryu Karate differ from the Okinawan karate arts?
     
  2. Koyoku

    Koyoku I enjoy pudding!


    Hello,

    I am not an expert on Koryu karate, but my teacher is the top teacher in it in the united states, I hope to study it more and more over time. I do feel however I can give you some basic insights to the art.

    First, what is different is the history and lineage. Koryu Karate means old school, ancient tradition etc. "China hand" It came to Japan from China, but not through Okinawa a VERY long time ago.

    There are many things that are similar to Okinawan Karate, but many things different. For example no long forms, Kata are done as two man exercises. The stances are more chinese style in nature (in my experience...)

    The best way to find out actually is to visit a teacher and experience it for your self. It is very fast and fluid and flowing, it has a very explosive quality to it. There are some clips on Tanemura Soke's website, that give a very basic idea of it that may help.

    Sorry I could not be of more help, but as I have said, I am just a newbie in that art. You might want to ask it on the Genbukan honbu site www.genbukan.org or contact Michael Coleman Kyoshi via e-mail and I am sure he can better explain it to you.

    Good luck.

    Sincerely,
     
  3. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    Looking at the video clips on the genbukan.org site, I have to say that I doubt this art is in any way 'koryu'. It looks to me like a pastiche of modern karate and ju-jitsu. The seonage shoulder throw, for example, has all the hallmarks of 20th century ju-jitsu - not pre 20th century karate.

    I could be wrong, but I don't believe (admittedly from what little I've seen) that this art is what it purports to be.

    Mike
     
  4. Koyoku

    Koyoku I enjoy pudding!

    Hello,

    thank you for your reply.

    I would like to clear some things up.

    Our "Koryu Karate" is a Gendai Sogo Budo. Not a "ko ryu" It comes from several "Ko-Ryu" systems and also Kuden and some Kung Fu that Takamatsu Sensei and Sato Kinebei picked up over the years, all of these are compiled into the curriculum.


    The foundation of the system comes from Ko-Ryu such as Kijin Chosui Ryu, Shinden Tatara Ryu etc. Which are themselves "Ko Ryu".


    Also the remark that implies our Soke is misrepresenting things and in effect lying, is not appreciated.

    Sincerely,
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2007
  5. Bronze Statue

    Bronze Statue Valued Member

    Thank you for your explanation and link Mr. Ray.

    Now that I've seen the site, I don't think I'll be practicing it at the dojos anytime soon (no dojos nearby), but thanks for that anyways.

    Given its heavy Chinese influence and mainland Japanese origin, do Koryu Karateka generally compete in Chinese-styled or Japanese-styled tournaments?

    On a lighter note, is it safe to assume that after training, your Karate dojo-mates prefer to throw down mainland-styled sake rather than the more Okinawan-styled awamori?
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2007
  6. Koyoku

    Koyoku I enjoy pudding!


    Hello,

    no tournaments.

    As for Sake, personally if its good its good, I'll drink it :)

    Warm regards,
     
  7. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    My apologies if my comments caused offence. However, I think you must acknowledge that 'koryu karate' is a rather odd and misleading name (albeit perhaps not deliberately so) for an art that does not trace its roots back to Okinawan karate. Its not karate, never mind koryu karate, but its called 'koryu karate'! I don't see how that could fail to be confusing.

    As for the use of the word 'kara', you might be interested to know that the 'kara' in Okinawan 'karate' was originally pronounced 'to' and referred to China rather than 'emptiness'.

    Mike
     
  8. Koyoku

    Koyoku I enjoy pudding!

    Hello,

    thank you for your reply.

    I do speak and read japanese so i understand the Kanji.

    In fact it is not misleading. As the term karate is a term used in japanese martial arts even if they do not come from okinawa, Such as Koto Ryu Karate Koppo jutsu.

    The arts that make up our Koryu karate are indeed koryu and are also indeed Karate.

    Maybe your not understanding something I don't know. In any event, if your really interested I might suggest contacting Michael Coleman Kyoshi or posting on the Genbukan website any concers you may have.

    best of luck.
     
  9. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    Splendid. You obviously understand then the reference to the Tang dynasty in the word to/kara and its use in Okinawan terminology, and therefore why the statement

    "Grandmaster Tanemura refers to the art as Koryu (classical or literally "old school") Karate (literally "China hand", not the "empty hand" as in Okinawan Karate-do)"

    does not really help to reduce confusion.

    As for the koryu part, I watched the video clips on the site. The technique called 'Katae Seio Nage', for example, looks to me like a modern version of seio nage rather than a koryu one. The aggressor is allowed to breakfall out of the technique and doesn't get a broken arm in the process. From what little I've seen of koryu ju-jitsu systems a throw like this would be intended to either break the arm or dislocate the shoulder.

    Of course I can see reasons why you wouldn't want to teach such a technique to anyone and everyone, you may wish to have people practice a nice safe toned down judo style seio-nage instead (which is what the video clip shows), but then it wouldn't be koryu.

    Well a Japanese audience might understand, but I'll bet an American audience will be confused.

    No offence is intended. It may simply be that I haven't seen sufficient on the genbukan website and am misjudging the system. If so I apologise, but I can only judge by what I see on the website. You may wish to mention to your instructors the potential for such confusion.

    Mike
     
  10. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    Isn't this just ninjutsu masquerading under a different name?
     
  11. WotEvaYuKanDo

    WotEvaYuKanDo Valued Member

    As far as I can see to be learning this curriculum you'd have to be already a member of his Genbukan/KJJR organisations and so you'd appreciate it is a modern synthesis/collating of techniques from some of the various older schools he knows about. Don't see a problem with the name unles it is for aggressive marketing to create a lucrative new karate empire, in such a circumstance the naming could be considered opportunistic and calculated. Quite why he felt the need to create this system is unclear but I speculate he possibly felt he had a bunch of techniques he couldn't comfortable include in his present grading curricula becasue their origin didn't fit with the ryu-ha he felt able to descibe as either 'ninjutsu' or 'classical jujutsu'. (Didn't Ueno Takashi teach something of a mish-mash at his dojo under the umbrella of tenshin shinto koryu kempo? Maybe this syllabus is for techniques originating from schools with status like that... you know bits and bobs?)
     
  12. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    Kempo would probably be a better name for it since the Japanese often use the term as a general umbrella for "martial arts".
     

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