Fundamental Questions

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by hongkongfuey, Apr 18, 2002.

  1. hongkongfuey

    hongkongfuey Kung Fu Geek

    I'd like to suggest a discussion thread where we question the very nature of what we practice. Martial Arts is an ever evolving subject, as the arts adapt to the context of the life in which we lead. We should not take anything we learn for granted, or we are just copying moves in parrot fashion. Rather, we as Martial Artists should be working toward the evolution of the art.

    The first question I would like to pose in this thread is as follows:

    Martial Arts is traditionally an Eastern (Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Thai, Indian) Province. In Chinese arts, for example, the Shaolin Temple was the breeding ground for many of the Chinese Styles we know today as martial artists gathered to share ideas.

    Is there a modern equivilent of this? Should a martial art need to be of eastern origin to be considered 'genuine'? What about an American Martial Art, or a British one? Could Scottish Martial Artists develop their own 'traditional style' incorporating new Kata?

    Let me know your thoughts. I'm especially interested in those that have formed their own style - did you even consider making it a 'western martial art'? Are their any other Fundamental Questions we should discuss?
     
  2. Pablo

    Pablo New Member

    Nice questions.

    Whether Western or Eastern, martial traditions generally developed during the feudal period of whatever society they are indigenous to. There are tribal methods of combat in historical records, but what we tend to think of as MA often developed when there was a powerful nobility to experiment, and plenty of peasants to experiment on.

    As far as your question about a modern facility to research new MAs, I would wonder what government would allow conclusive experimentation on 'better' methods of killing people.
    :D

    I know that medical and technological advances allow us to extrapolate what is likely to happen to someone, but the human organism has a strange way of refusing to conform to predictions.
    Some of my criminological work is in that very area, and I can tell you that punch 'A' from system XYZ has a greater impact than punch 'B" from a different system, but even knowing that data doesn't tell us 'what works' in the MA sense.
    (Ballistics researchers have been doing this with firearms for years, and you still get a 300lb man dropped by a .22, while a 150lb man ignores several rounds from a 9mm).

    I also suspect that the enormous amount of money to be made from the current system of teaching MAs will keep research such as mine in the back pages of esoteric police journals.
    ;)

    take care

    paul
     
  3. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    In reference to breeding grounds for the Martial Arts. One source of future systems may still be the military itself, as they have been absorbing the practical applications of the MA for centuries, and continue to do so today. I believe TKD owes much of it's origin to the Korean Military.

    I couldn't think of much by way of European MA ( remember ecky thump anyone? ).

    Perhaps Fencing qualifies though???

    Or Cumberland Wrestling???

    Savate???

    As to a Scottish Martial Art HKF, if it was to be traditional then the kilt would have to be worn, ruling out any kicks lest the 'secret weapon' be visible. Known in Chinese as Wun Hung Lo!

    Andy

    Good Thread BTW
     
  4. Andrew Green

    Andrew Green Member

    Boxing, wrestling, fencing, archery, Javelin, Shooting, etc.

    Have a look here: http://www.thehaca.com/

    No, its just the term "Martial arts" is usually used with Asian fighting styles, the same stuff existed in western culture. The Asians just did it a little differently, better PR, etc.

    Just so long as there is no grappling in kilts...

    But why the need for kata? Kata are not needed to have a martial art.
     
  5. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    EMA (English Martial Arts association) claims to teach western martial arts, and it looks geniune at least.

    Technically fencing is a martial science rather than a martial art, we can blame one of the Kings for that.
     
  6. hongkongfuey

    hongkongfuey Kung Fu Geek

    I didn't mean you needed kata for it to be a martial art. I just wondered if you could develop a new style, make up new kata, and then label it as a geniune 'western martial art'

    OK, I know that you can do whatever you like - I'm just curious as to if anyone has ever done something like this before!
     
  7. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    I can't remember the guys name but around the turn of the 20th century a french 'Professor' of Savate wrote a journal of western fighting methods, apparently when compared in hindsight, the European styles were more technically advanced in the kicking range, I'll try and see if I can dig up the book where I read that.

    Thanx
     
  8. hongkongfuey

    hongkongfuey Kung Fu Geek

  9. hongkongfuey

    hongkongfuey Kung Fu Geek

    Fundamental Question 2: The purpose of Martial Arts

    Due to the origins of Martial Arts, there is much philosophy taught as part of the art. In fact, part of the attraction of many people to the 'Arts' is this element of things.

    Would the separation of these lead to 'two halves making less than a whole'?

    In other words, would someone who studied purely the fighting side of a MA, with no grounding in Chi, philosophy, history of the art etc be a worse fighter than someone who had studied the whole package? Is this why these other areas are taught?

    Or is the whole purporse of Martial Arts to develop yourself as a person, and the ability to fight is just a by-product of your training?
     
  10. Andrew Green

    Andrew Green Member

    The word "Art" can mean a lot of different things, a painting, the liberal arts, a craftsmans art, etc. First define what you mean by "arts".

    I would argue that the fighting, or rather the skill of fighting, can make it an art without any philosophical aspects.
     
  11. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    To further your thought, Andrew:

    To me: "martial" is the fighting aspect. "art" is the ability to take what one has learned -- the tools of the trade -- and utilize them to express his/her own way.

    Look at any other "art" and *creativity* is what it's about ... not mimickry. All writers use the same tools (i.e.: pen/pencil, paper, word processor, typewriter, etc.). All painters use the same tools (i.e.: brush, paints, canvass). Knowledge of the tools does not make an artist. Understanding the tools; using them to create something unique makes an artist. I think martial arts is the same.

    We all learn the same tools (i.e.: punch, kick, lock, throw, sweep, disarm, etc.) ... but what makes one a martial *artist* is the ability to *create* something unique with those tools.

    Mike
     
  12. waya

    waya Valued Member

    I see some things that weren't thought of lol. Western weapons arts mainly, Martial Arts are war arts, so you can add combat shooting, the various fencing and sword arts from Europe, Staff forms from Europe as well.
     
  13. Pablo

    Pablo New Member

    A lot of the philosophies associated with martial arts are more of an overlay than is popularly believed.

    The ability to apply martial arts training in day to day life hundreds of years ago was as pragmatic a matter as carrying a gun in a later era.
    Some of the early practitioners of arts that we think of as Taoist or Buddhist were about as spiritually motivated as Billy The Kid.


    :woo:


    paul
     
  14. hongkongfuey

    hongkongfuey Kung Fu Geek

    As Neville Wray (famous Lau Gar semi-contact fighter) once said to me :

    Martial is about hitting people.
    Martial Arts is about hitting people - With Style.
     
  15. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    HKF, I keep forgetting to read that book, but I remember that Charles Lecour was the guy that took savate and western boxing, and created French Boxing, I think he might have also incorparated some stick fighting (walking sticks, umbrellas and the likes) into the system.

    Thanx
     
  16. hongkongfuey

    hongkongfuey Kung Fu Geek

    Ah, the infamous poisoned umbrella?
     

Share This Page