[Freestyle/Sporting MA] From Ring to Street!

I beleive I learned some things in competitive bouts that better equip me for 'real' confrontation.

We could spend all day 'slagging off' competitors and freestylers, but let's not. Instead, ask yourself what are the more positive aspects of testing yourself on the mat.

What do you get on the Mat, that you don't get from Kata?

Do tournament tactics and techniques translate to self defence?

 

Can I go for a different option? Tournament fighting only makes a difference if that's purely what you train for, in which case its damaging.

 

There are a few different ways that could be read Jimmy. Could you explain what you mean?

 

I've competed when there were no trophies and no medals. If you placed then at the end of the tournament you are called forward and recognized.
Kata helps you become comfortable with various moves and techniques but it's kumite that brings it all together and tests your abilities. This is where you learn to improvise and adapt or suffer the consequences. Nothing like getting hit in the head to make you realize you shouldn't have dropped your guard.

 

Okay, I'll elaborate, sorry that was badly put.

Training purely for winning tournaments in the most effecient way is not a good idea, but you almost never see this carried out. Training purely for point sparring as an example, and trying for the most effecient method, would involve little more than holding a fence and occasionally throwing single techniques using pure speed rather than power (yes people will say that they still have power, but you try comparing a fast move with poor mechanics to a slower one with good mechanics). Limiting yourself like this is damaging if, and only if, you are also taught that you are learning realistic self defense. You are learning some degree of self defense, but while someone training for a mix will learn a variety of techniques you will tend to only learn those which are effective in tournaments. One example of this is twisting kick, absolutely great kick, can sneak up under guards and hit just about any target, but its application really comes in if you use it to the thigh or the knee. Because of the mechanics of the kick it is simply not particularly powerful (it can be, but that's once you've mastered it), if you learn within tournament rules (remember I'm talking about point sparring and not necessarily other forms of tournaments) then you are learning to apply the technique to targets it is not designed for.

I think that made sense. I hope.

 

OK, the best qualified people to comment are probably those who have actually competed or fought.....................................

 

I've fought, and I've done point sparring. Much less point sparring than actual fighting, it didn't reflect a genuine fight at all.

 

Superb Thread/Poll Andy.

Having seen a little of both sides of the story (firstly training in traditional TKD and then moving to Kickboxing with a view to competing) I think your opinion varies hugely to your own experience.

I have trained with many students who's only focus is to compete and yes, they do sometimes get short sighted and loose focus as to why one would study in the martial arts. This however does not necessarily make them any less efficient than someone who trains for the other reasons, just perhaps more prone to thinking that real life situations are similar to competition fighting, this of course is a mistake.

In my opinion, it doesnt really matter what your training goal is, the point is that every hour you spend working on techniques, be those techniques street based or simple ways to score a point you are improving yourself.

I also feel that a lot of competition techniques are valid on the street. For instance, the good old inside and outside thigh kicks. The only reason for studying these techniques is to weaken an oponents frame and perhaps slow his kicks down. But due to the directness and speed of the technique it would be highly effective on the street, this is from experience, not opinion.

Rather than speculation and opinion, how about a few of you list your real life experiences and what you consider your training goals are, perhaps this would outline a more rounded answer to the poll?

Of course we are all proned to exagerate, its part of our nature but the more we do, the more we loose the clarity of the answer in which we seek. LOL! Perhaps I should start writing fortune cookies

 

Call me Graf Zeppelin, cos I don't mind going down in flames. I thought this idea was interesting, so I'm gonna persevere.

In points fighting, the first person to score get's the point.
Points fighters spend a lot of time training their movements so they are telegraphed as little as possible.
Their objective is to get their weapon to the target in the shortest time possible, before they in turn can be struck.
This is done in a pressure environment, against someone who is doing the same thing you are trying to do.

I spent some time fighting for points. In my mindset, I tried to imagine that my opponent had his feet and hands dipped in broken glass. If he hit me, even once, I was going to get hurt. Unless I was playing for time, I used 90% hand techniques.

I feel that this translates well to street fighting. If I am threatened, then I have already been assaulted as far as I am concerned. I would hit first, and believe 200% that I will hit my opponent completely unawares. I know I am fast, I know I am strong, I know my opponent is dangerous, but I know I am not going to stop hitting him/them until all danger to me is past. I have to have these beleifs, otherwise, I will be ineffective.

You may argue that in points fighting, the techniques you see are not designed to hurt, and are often flashy. This is true.
It requires little modification to make these effective.
That lunging backfist can become an eyestrike, that reverse punch can become a throat strike. Good points fighters strike in combinations, and are used to regaining safe distance after their salvo has been fired.

What say you?

Andy

 

I think points fighting is a fairly sketchy base to build proper fighting.

The main thing I think competing has going for it (in this context) is that it teaches you to deal with that huge surge of adrenalin that you also get before during a fight. That's something you can only get through confrontation IMO

 

Nobody is suggesting you do mate. Merely looking for the good in all things.

Good point about the adrenalin surge thing, though I don't feel this reaches the same level as it does on the street FMLI.

Andy

 

Do you still get the point if the other person hits you on the way out or just after you hit them?
Can you score points if the other person has already scored on this exchange?
Can you score multiple points (you hit three strikes in a combo)?

Just trying to figure out the rules of the points system.

In a real fight I would be trying to put them on the ground with my first series of attacks rather than go in strike/score then go out. IMO the combo should be a setup for a take down/lock/throw. But thats just me.

The only down fall I see about points fighting (I actually be wrong about this but anyway) is the aversion to vital point striking.
You can't really strike the eyes, throat, groin, kidneys, front of knee, temple, etc. with any force if you aren't trying to hurt them. Just wodering if there is an element of conditioning against lethal strikes, throws, etc.
And are the techniques you use going to lethal if you perform them properly? I'm not talking about changing a forefist to a finger thrust but changing the target of knee strikes and such which if I attack with is going to break ribs not bruise them (Muay Tahi knee to side of ribs just hurts a little because of the angle of the attack. Our knee strike comes in horizontal and is definately going to break something.)
The other thing is situation. The ring you fight in I accept as nessceary as you will have limited space in a fight but can you fight effectively with gloves on? Do you wear gloves? foot/shinpads?

I think that mainly it will be the person who will do the "illegal" things without hesitation that will win a "real" fight.

Flame throwers on standby. Asbestos suit ready. Fire exstinguisher primed.

 

I agree Andy but it's a good place to start. My own first experiences in both competition and a streetfight was that i couldn't think or talk because of my lack of familiarity with dealing with adrenalin. A few competitions taught me to deal with the more unwelcome parts of the rush.

Apologies if I came accross as a bit final in condemning points fighting. But i think there are more cons than pros, and it's better to separate them completely.

 

Are we talking MMA here or stop every time you point or FC Karate,

What do you define as ring?

 

Re: From Ring to Street!

I think that they do translate to a certain extent. Several of the applications of the aikido techniques that we use in randori can be effective in a self defence situation. I have used two of them myself.

Couldn't agree more LH! If I had tried to do the lovely looking kata movements I would have been given a hearty smack and would probably not be able to use my hands to type this

Have to admit that my aikido is still not of a high enough level that I could rely solely on it. I would still have to batter the person using brute force and ignorance until I could find the opening for the technique that I wanted to use Until the techniques become second nature to me then it will always be a case of the second or two that I am thinking about what to do being more than enough of an opportunity for my enemy/opponent to hurt me.

 

Hi Darzeka,

I'll try to qualify my subject better, as you ask some important questions. I was mainly referring to the UK semi-contact points system. First person to score with a legal technique scores the point, even if the other person hits back.
Usually the points system is similar to; 1 poit hand to body. 1 point hand to head. 2 points kick to body. 3 points kick to head. 1 point for a sweep which drops the other person to their back, with a further point given for following up the sweep with a technique. A point is deducted for leaving the (usually matted) area every time after warnings have been given. Points are taken away for excessive contact (lack of control), and in some cases for loss of balance. Combinations aren't scored in points, only the first successful technique. There is a 'continuous' points system which is more akin to Amateur Kickboxing scored on a clicker system.

I was saying that the legal techniques can be turned into non-legal (read as effective) ones, but keeping all the good things. Non Telegraphy, speed, biomechanics etc.

Lau Gar as a style, became well known on the points circuit in the Seventies and Eighties, with fighters like Steve Babbs, Neville Wray, Kevin Brewerton, Sean Viera etc. Too many to mention really. Not that I would expect anyone here to have heard of them. These guys were willing to enter any points system, anywhere in the world, fight to their rules, and win at all costs. my own Sifu used to come back from the Florida Gold Coast championships every year with a big Prize. It was the intelligence, and adaptability of these guys that helped them overcome. They fought Traditional Karateka, Tae Kwon Do, Kickboxers etc. Analysed the styles weaknesses, and beat them. Even when often these styles can have very biased refereeing.

Semi Contact fighters wear hand pads, footpads, shin guards, groin guards, gum shields and head guards.

It is by no means a complete figting system, I'm just saying there are some good bits that translate into other areas.

Some of the Lau Gar guys later went on to Pro KickBoxing, and one even Heavy Weight Boxing, yet i could still see Lau Gar in their movements.

Errm, Hope that helps Darzeka

Not at all Stump, sometimes you gotta be prepared to look at things with an open mind. The adaptation that these old points fighters did, was akin to what the JKD guys do, in picking out the bits that work, from the bits that don't. It's easy to dismiss the points circuit as glitzy and egotistical, with guys just playing psychological tag. If you can take something of value from it though, surely that's a good thing?

Hi Kat, I started off talking about point stop.

'Ring' was possibly a poor choice for the title in light of the replies I have had thus far. Point stop, as I suspect you already know, is fought in a square area of variable size. The larger Tournaments are on matted areas.

Very wise Silver. Once a technique is second nature to you, you can adopt it to fit the circumstances.

Flame away

Andy

 

OK then
I say ring is good for anybody who is serious about fighting.Not nesscessarily for the stategies or techniques but more for the situation of pressure that it puts you in.Feeling the intensity of having another person after you.Not someone that you train with every week.
I would recommned those who haven't stepped in the ring for at least 3 x 3min rounds of Muay Thai or Boxing should at least attempt to experience something simular.MMA is where its at now for me,I get to close grapple take down grapple lock etc and sometimes I even win.(I do strike I just wanted to hear the bitching if I left it out)

I know MMA is not real,the floors softer,their's no mates out the back,and the fact that hes wearing lyrca shorts but hey I enjoy it.

Point fighting (as in stop point)can't see that having much tranlation at all,flow is very important in the stuff I practise.But each to his own.

 

LOL

Hi Kat,

It's merely one aspect of the things I have spent time on, and not as others might think my sole strategy. I always feel it is better to be the person striking first, as it sets up everything else. The tools are there in points fighting, to be used or ignored as in everything.
If I can modify a points technique to take out the eyes of an aggressor, or his ability to breath, then surely it translates pretty well?
It is not my sole function as an MArtist, merely another spanner in my toolbox. I don't discount any form of practice, merely absorb what I find useful, as someone once said. Try it and judge for yourself.

Andy

 

Absolutely,I think it all must be helpfull in the long run,all formats seem to teach distancing targeting etc.I feel a lot of this comes down to the person,and how he responds to a situation.So applying the mental pressure to perform in any format cna't be bad.

Self defense, well I am still of the opinion that alot of it is common sense,and reamaining calm enough to actually use that common sense.

And so I think I will tick the box that says TF are pretty hard dudes even when oiled up and wearing lycra shorts