Makes me wonder if he sports a 'James Dean' DA hairstyle. :thinking: http://www.beauty-and-the-bath.com/image-files/1950s-ducks-****-hairstyle.jpg
This is all well and good, and in fact, I'd bet you might even hear someone like master Alex Suh say that researching stuff is an *honorable* endeavor. But at some point, "research" is bound to cross the line into the realm of the verboten "cross-training" since wrapping your head around a physical technique or method isn't always doable simply by "studying" it, i.e. by reading written accounts and using one's knowledge of biomechanics to infer where such methods might spill over into your own techniques with a possible chance of enhancing them. Sometimes you have to get down to the nitty-gritty task of performing the movements in order to fully understand all the nuances involved. Wouldn't this be the same as actually cross-training? But I've been there & done that, and the main difference certainly hinges on the fact that if doing it as "research" that you don't delve too deep into the *offending* practices, nor spend too long with the *foreign* training methods (assuming that if truly a "master" of your MA, then you ought to be able to surmise things without having to dig too far). Basically, the trick is to keep the syllabus *pristine* without having to go outside the obvious established paradigm that's already been outlined. IOW, if you can't do it without getting brown smudges on your nose, then it's probably better left alone or else done cautiously on the sly.
Ok.... understood, Pugil, but I wonder if you appreciate the implications of what is being said here. First....try to imagine spending 20 years dedicated to a pursuit. Then consider that over time, and with increasing frequency what is presented turns out NOT to be what is happening. Then consider that people, at first FEAR to change.... and then later are revealed to actually WANT to keep things as they are. To me, the horror is not things are revealed to be hypocritical lies or that people acknowledge those hypocritical lies. To me, the horror is that people either cannot----or will not---make an effort to correct the situation. And you know what tops that? What tops that is that such courage to make changes---even when they are not popular---is supposedly the kind of strength of character folks train in MA in the first place. In the end...maybe it was a good thing that I hung-out here. Though I am not too happy with the out-come, at least I don't have any illusions regarding what Koreans are really about concerning their martial traditions. I guess if it quacks like a fake and it waddles like a fake, and makes money like a fake.... well......who cares, right? Best Wishes, Bruce
Maybe we should get the mods to designate this thread as the official catch-basin for off-topic commentary. But moving on... A lot of people who practice TMA are sheep- CHECK! There are a bunch of lying basterds out there teaching TMA who're only interested in making a substantial profit (whether equipped with *squinchy* eyes or not)- CHECK! Time to get over the sour grapes attitude and move on- DOUBLE CHECK! Just my 2¢
"like water off a duck it flowes over you" -KSJ Let me fowl up with this. Here is a young man who has studied TMA for his entire life. He has gathered a lot of knowledge from various teachers. He then decides to make it his lifes endeavor to teach and spread this knowledge to his countrymen. Some round eyed guy takes lessons and says hey why don't you move to the US, because it is the land of opportunity, and you could have great success there. Ten or so years later a bum named Obewan watches a Bruce Lee movie and says wow! I would like to do that. Just so happens that there is a school of martial arts nearby. The name of the art didn't matter, the country of origin didn't matter. The only thing that concerned young Obewan was learning MA's and testing his skills with others. As he progressed Obewan decided to open his own school and pass this experience on to others who had the same interests. My point is that nothing has changed. The MA is the vehicle nothing more. It could have been Karate, TKD, Kung Fu, exc, exc. Just because it matters to some the authenticity of the material. It doesn't detract from the value of the end result. Since we are supposed to be discussing forms...As I understand Kuk Sool Hyung are designed to fulfill a portion of our training to build balance, focus, strength, speed, and power. If it was influenced by Mantis Kung Fu thats fine with me. Mantis Kung Fu is after all a TMA. BTW SsangKall I do see elements of Kuk Sool forms in the videos you posted. Look close and you can pick them out perhaps not verbatim but at the very least some principles. The difference that I've noticed that sets KSW apart from the Chinese and Japanese cousins is the principle of the hard/soft aspect within the training as opposed to just one or the other. This to me makes what we do traditionally Korean or more precise Kuk Sool. Regards
Great segue/pun/whatever, Obe. See my "catch-basin" remark from the previous post... only a small percentage of posts on this thread seem to be on-topic. (sheesh!) Realize, folks, that "bum" is actually an acronym. I'll remind you that Obewan is extremely fond of acronyms and in fact, they appear in his sub-text description (UTFL=Use The Force, Luke - a famous quote of Obe-wan Kenobi) and in his sig (MTFBWY=May The Force Be With You - which although not a quote attributable to OWK in particular, the phrase is spoken by his character more than any other in the ORIGINAL star wars movie released circa 1977, and since renamed as Star Wars: Episode IV - A New Hope). So what does BUM stand for? BUM = beardy uber man (despite his überness, Obewan doesn't know how to get the characters with diacritical marks to emerge from his keyboard, or else "bum" would have been written as BÜM - ). However, since anyone who isn't privy to this info might think I'm disparaging poor Obe, I will refrain from using BUM (or BÜM) when referring to him and instead use BMK (beardy man kenobi - which I stole from the sub-text description of MAPer, Hatamoto). And now, back to your regularly scheduled program... (whether 'on' or 'off' topic )
Hey UNKJN, not that I necessarily agree with what you said in post #526 but I had to thank you because I noticed that my thanks in post #528 set you at *666* thank yous, I didn't want that demonic number associated with you...although :thinking:...no I won't take it back :evil: Have A good day!
BION, O., I am in complete agreement with everything you wrote. I find no fault with any of your post and wish to sweet J.C. that the way you described things is the way thing would have come together. IME, what I have seen of people training because the training suits them down to their boots is a relatively new development. Before KS (IE WKSA) became the closed camp that it is today---- replete with its very own franchise agreement--- there were plenty of people who represented KS as a practice deeply steeped in the Korean traditions of old. The original history I read took the the traditions all the way back to SADO MU SOOL (lit: "tribal military arts") of a few thousand years ago------ even though we have practically no idea what the systems might have been then. Today, the membership and organization are painfully silent about such things having had their arm twisted enough to make most people finally admit to shenanigans. I still resent the arrogance of the folks who, over the years, played fast and loose with Korean history and Korean culture. I also lament the way in which more authentic Korean practices were ignored while constructions such as KS hogged the MA spotlight. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce
I wish I could help with a more in depth look into the reasons KSW claims the connection with ancient traditions. Perhaps it is a cultural thing as opposed to literally adapting the martial art. AYK the information is rather obscure and in most cases lost, and as frustrating as it is for you, it must be even more frustrating for a Korean Nationalist to know the information is lost. I do think that if you compare the history of other Asian countries there is similarities in the cultures, perhaps enough so that adopting one tradition to support a theory to create a MA and call it Korean. Essentially if a certain type of technique was used to defend the royal palace in China similar techniques may well have been used to defend the royal palace of Korea. So in seeking out those types of techniques one would assume that a intelligent person would learn from anyone they could find who fits the bill. If that person happened to be skilled in Chinese or Japanese MA then I would think that there would be a strong influence of each genre. I have heard rumblings of a *White Paper* that is supposed to set the record straight on the history of KSW, but my guess is that it will only cover the modern history FWIW. Also the book by Master Barry Harmon is suppose to be a history on Korean MA but after reading it seems it is a great book on Korean History of battles and warfare but, just what specific techniques were used is unclear. Thanks
The one book I keep at home instead of at the office... But if memory serves me correctly, there are a bunch of pictures & drawings near the back of the book which illustrate some rather unique and interesting contraptions. The one that pops into my head and seems relevant, is a multiple arrow launcher. Unless flipping a switch or igniting the gunpowder or however the damn thing operates in order to launch all the arrows, is considered to not require much skill, it strikes me as peculiar why such a contraption doesn't get mention in something like the MYDBTJ. And while the thread uses two empty-hand forms for its title, the OP originally stated that weapon forms were to be included in the discussion. Now, arguing whether or not groups such as the muye24gi or muye24ban are "more authentically korean" in their presentation of using certain ancient weapons than is KSW, assuming that KSW leans more toward a chinese flavor, is not any concern of mine. Nor do I consider the practice of certain ancient weapons along the methods employed for historical reenactment games, to be fulfilling the true spirit of TMA. But so many MA systems nowadays seem to neglect the weapon aspect of training, in favor of H2H matches so the competitors can test/prove their prowess at physical confrontation. But to me, this is what makes a TMA traditional. The use AND understanding of ancient weaponry which is considered obsolete in modern warfare, including how to make the weapon (also incorporating common alternate constructions), various uses of the weapon as well as the most prominent style of use, and other things along these lines. Not as a means of trying to perfect skills for battling opponents in mortal combat using such outdated weaponry, but instead as a means of preserving the knowledge surrounding the ancient traditions which spawned the practices we value today, even if mostly viewed as a mere means of physical exercise, albeit with a mental adjunct that keeps the activity from becoming boring or monotonous. The "intrigue" factor is what it's all about as far as I'm concerned.
:saz: Okay...true enough...but now we are talking about something quite different. If I believed that an ancient people used , say, a Palm Strike, but had no living idea what the technique looked like then it might follow that if I wanted to revivify this technique I might checkout the nearest living relative (as it were) and consider such a technique from that source and filtered through the values of my own culture. Its a famously popular approach with many practitioners and probably went on more than we know with such lauded institutions as the Shaolin Temple in China. However, what I could not ethically say is that what I have produced is directly connected historically with some past era or event. What I could not represent is that what I am doing is what was done in a palace, military, or para-military setting. What I could not ethically do is claim the same recognition that, say, a person who had sought out actual (albeit obscure) practitioners and dedicated himself to learning the original material. Now....as I mentioned before.....if KS people want to represent to the world that Korea has had some past military glories and that KUK SOOL is simply a modern candidate for the position of "chief method for celebrating" those past glories noone should be better pleased than I. And then SAY that! Stop all this coat-tailing on vague suggestions of references to allusions made. 'Cuz when it gets uncovered for what it is people like me really abreact to the Hypocrisy. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce
Yep.... there are a number of things missing in the MYTBTJ. For instance the entourage of the Korean king in 1795 showed that practically ALL mounted troops carried both a bow (with case of arrows) and a single-handed sabre or TO. Historically archery has been a mainstay of Korean warfare and it is not to be found in the MYTBTJ. Further not all of the 32 Boxing Methods identified by General QI Ji-guang are included. The use of the "Mandarin Duck" Formation in its many forms was not included either. OTOH, there are a number of chapters on the Two-handed sabre including four separate Japanese forms, a two-person Combat Drill and a single form Chinese form. All for an item that has yet to be proven to have been included in the Korean Royal Arsenal at all. And though there is proven use of Hot Weapons including arabusques, muskets, cannons and hand-thrown explosive ordinance, none of this was included either. Then again, though, the MYTBTJ was not intended as an exhaustive catalog. Its a training manual and thats about it. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce
I thought that an acronym is a word made up from the letters of a string of two or more other words so, whilst BUM could indeed be an acronym (as well as a description of what most of us sit on), I don't think that MTFBWY qualifies as a true acronym...
:hail: Sorry, Pugil. I was being lazy, as "acronym" is shorter to type than "initialism" (BTW, initialism does qualify as correct terminology under the premise of what I was describing). Again, my humblest apologies. :bow1: I think Obe forgot that this word typically means something different to our british brethren. Vagrant is the usual meaning understood by folks in the USA, not the buttocks.
so is there a means to teach these forms were one is the foundation (i am assuming bon guk geom), one is beginner (jedo geom?), one is advanced (possibly the chinese jedo geom form?), and one advanced (ssang geom)? i think the beauty in our styles is that they teach in a manner that develops aesthitically and in difficulty. this method is what has kept my mind and body dedicated to our syllabus, but that is not to say i cannot change my mind on adding auxillary forms techniques.... as long as they fit accordingly.
some vids of the forms i mentioned: bon guk geom [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fn_-YAMyCGc&feature=youtube_gdata_player"]YouTube - The Korea Bonkukkum Association - Bonkukkum[/ame] jang do(jedo?) [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oehuo2LdVB0&feature=youtube_gdata_player"]YouTube - The Korea Bonkukkum Association -Jangdo[/ame] ssang geom [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOXj9PHRyt0&feature=youtube_gdata_player"]YouTube - The Korea Bonkukkum Association - Ssanggum-1[/ame]
Because the supposed tradition justifies their existence -in the same way any company tries to prove its "validity" by stressing its age and experience (you know what I mean - "M Mouse Drain Cleaner Ltd, in business for 250 years...." Or any rioyal head of state justifies his/her reign by harking back to how many threads of ancestry he/she has to Queen Victoria, William the ******* or Edward the Confessor (however tenuous or illegitimate) looking at from a different direction, these so-called TKMAs hold the same kind of reality as the ersatz recreations of extinct animal speccies (e.g. fake Aurochs, Heck Horse) promoted by the Heck brothers in Nazi Germany (for the purpose of validating the history of the Third Reich). Maybe we should rename these recreated "Traditional" Korean Martial Arts as "Quagga Sool"??? Having said that the problem is not in the art, but simply in the claim to fake tradition. But of course for an art which is supposedly based on truth/honour etc,, having a lie as your basic precept rather undermines all that follows
Yes, we've kind of adopted that term from you guys across 'the pond' in recent years too, but I suggest that my Late Middle English origins trumps your... Erm, whenerever you guys came up with another word for a Tramp... Oh no, that means something different over there too!
