Forms in Eskrima,Kali, Arnis?

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by EmptyHandGuy, Feb 27, 2009.

  1. EmptyHandGuy

    EmptyHandGuy Valued Member

    Do all the different styles of eskrima, kali or arnis have forms in their syllabus? If you do what do you train them for, eg are they like a guidebook to the techniques of your style or do they contain strategies for self defence like some styles of karate have within their interpretation of kata?
     
  2. PlumDragon

    PlumDragon "I am your evil stimulus"

    Kind of depends on how you define "form"...

    A few systems out there have some formwork in the traditional sense, like Doce Pares seems to be more in that direction. Almost all FMA systems have 12 or more angles that are generally done in a similar way as a traditional form, but this is primarily for learning the angles and getting some swinging time--you wouldnt practice this for hours to try and "hone your form". In Inosanto-Lacoste systems, there are a number of "patterns" and drills that can be done solo and 2-man. Whether you call these forms is up to intepretation.

    The Balintawak of GM Taboada has a single form that encapsulates all the core types of strikes in the system, and is learned as a beginner before agak. Coincidentally, the Balintawak of GM Tabimina has absolutely nothing resembling formwork, no real drills or patterns of any kind--its all about attribute development.

    So really, it varies by how strict you are in your definition of form, and also is fairly different from system to system.
     
  3. EmptyHandGuy

    EmptyHandGuy Valued Member


    I was thinking along the lines of those done in Doce Pares, we do the 12 strikes/angles but I would class them as drills.
    So theres no hard and fast rule of forms within eskrima, kali or arnis then, some have them others don't.
    With regards to those styles that have none, has that always been the case or have they discarded them for whatever reason? Is it the more modern styles that don't have forms and the more traditional styles like Doce Pares that do?
     
  4. CatWise

    CatWise Valued Member

    I don't know about other, but in Modern Arnis, we have 5 open hand forms, several stick forms (I don't know how many but it might be 5 as well).

    Kali has 1 form, which incorporates all the strikes and blocks, and lots of other movements. I believe it’s called 360 and it’s my favorite. I have seen several deliveries of this from in tournaments, and in my opinion it’s just beautiful.

    While all the forms look beautiful, and are meant as demonstration, they all have practical applications. I always found that learning the practical application helped me understand the form and what I was doing, and thus helped me remember the form and made it look better.
     
  5. LabanB

    LabanB Valued Member

    Forms IN EKA

    Hi GB,

    Forms? Some have 'em, some don't! Some systems train mainly sparring so don't spend time on forms (again how you define the term helps here).

    And as with most martial systems you have people who are vehemently against any recognised Form training, as they believe it embeds into you set responses to attacks, which limit how you deal with any "out of the expected" attack. Others believe that Forms allow you to train for multiple attackers on your own.

    The mentality with which you train Forms determines how successful they are as far as the multiple attackers view is.

    Bill

    See you tomorrow...and good luck:evil:
     
  6. EmptyHandGuy

    EmptyHandGuy Valued Member

    Hi Bill, I find forms difficult as I have a terrible memory:confused: It just takes a while for them to sink into my thick skull, for example, form 1 I thought that I would never get it but after a while and with a lot of help from fellow students I managed to get it fixed into my head. Mind it did feel like it had disappeared this afternoon at the grading along with the 13 count and 15 count:bang:
     
  7. tonglonglengjai

    tonglonglengjai Valued Member

    Doce Pares seems to have more forms than other systems, maybe because of the cross training in Judo, Karate etc.

    One thing I like the forms for is that they directly help with your Amarra development and footwork. Doing several reps is also good cardio.

    Just think of them as extended drills. They do stick in your head after a while.

    I do prefer to spend most of my time doing partnerwork, if I have a partner that is..

    Paul
     
  8. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Well there are so called traditional and modern styles within the Doce Pares organisation, some have forms and some dont, it is all a matter of which instructor you are training with and your perception of what is a 'Form' Sayaw/Anyo etc.

    But I think you will find that the majority of those systems that classify themselves as 'Traditional' of 'Classical' have very little in the way of Forms as many would perceive it. They are more along the lines of trainng with partners in a more freeplay type of training, using the more classical liner lines built along the blade based movements and techniques. Many classical systems for instance do not have what many recognise as snaking disarms as these are stick based disarms and not sword based. A lot of the joint locking and throwing have a heavy influence from other martial arts systems and again in some classical systems you would not see it.

    It is hard to define what is traditional FMA and what is Modern as many of the systems you see today have adapted themselves over the years to suit the requirements of todays enviroment and in many cases will be a combination of both Modern and Traditional/Classical. And when you say Traditional, what does that mean in FMA terms??? It's hard to say as each system has it's own interpretation of what is and what is not Traditional and you also have to ask yourself, how old does it have to be before it becomes 'Traditional'.

    For instance we can look upon the Doce Pares Original Multi Style curriculum of GM Dionisio Canete as being Modern in the sense of the word as this cussiculum has only been completed in the last couple of years, but the curriculum it's self is based on the 12 classical styles that originated the Doce Pares Group in 1932, it has adapted to encompase all these styles as well we being put down into a curriculum so in effect it is a combination of both classical and modern.

    Modern Arnis for instance by it's very name is a Modern System, they GM Presas developed certain methods of training to be more suited to the modern world, but his knowledge is based on classical training.

    So really it is hard to define what is and what is not a Modern System of FMA as it's very essance is all about adapting and constantly improving your own personal style.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  9. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    I mean, let's look at Balintawak for instance. This is seen by many as a Modern Style fromed in 1952 and developed for the streets in that it is predominantly a single stick system with some excellent empty hand and knife defence skills but it is taught in a more (for want of a better word) 'Classical' manner based on the old Labangon Fencing Club Style of 1921 in that you and your training partner are both student and instructor of each other, teaching each other to improve your attributes for fighting and it has no forms.

    There are those who would say 'Kali' is the more traditional art in that it is based more on the blade than the stick and has no forms at all and others would argue that 'Kali' is a more modern term coined to denote it's traditional values and approach to the FMA.

    Eskrido for instance is part of Doce Pares as a whole, based on the 'Corto Kurbada' Style within Doce Pares and an adaptation of the more 'Classical' Corto Liner style of Doce Pares which can be found in the 'Doce Pares Original Multi Style Curriculum' of GM Dionisio Canete along side the more 'Classical' sections of Corto Liner and Corto Original. Eskrido was developed by GM Cacoy in the 50's and 60's to try to counter the Corto Liner Style of the Labangon Fencing Style which Balintawak is based on, it has a combination of Akido/Judo and Eskrima yet Eskrido has no 'Forms' yet admitedly it is a more Modern developement.

    And Eskrido and Balintawak over the years developed because of each other. Both accepted as Modern Styles but both trained in a traditional manner.

    So what is 'Traditional'? And you have to also ask yourself how old does it have to be to be considered 'Traditional' bearing in mind Doce Pares was only formed in 1932 yet it is well documented as being the oldest club in the Philippines and still teaching the Classical styles as well as the more modern variations of the FMA.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2009
  10. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    You can go to a Doce Pares instructor and learn the 'Classical' Systems within it and at the same time wear the more modern uniforms, belts and work to a written curriculum? So is it 'Traditional' or 'Modern'?
     
  11. EmptyHandGuy

    EmptyHandGuy Valued Member

    Thanks Pat some great amswers there!! It's really hard to pin down what exactly traditional means and you have gotten it across pretty well there, thanks.
    When I talk of forms I mean in the sence that karate has kata. Does Rapid Arnis have that type of form in the sylabus?
     
  12. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Well most of my guys do train Doce Pares Original Multi Style as well so we do have those 20+ Sayaw that are in that curriculum too to play with and teach but others are also quite advanced in other FMA systems as well, but the Rapid Arnis Syllabus its self has only 3 Forms (Anyo).

    The first teaches basic footwork and body mechanics whilst learning to combine the common (liner) and no so common (Kurbada & Abaniko etc) strikes, it is also a combination of the different Armara we use. So it is more like an advanced Armara as oppsed to a Kata type thing as it can be applied against an attacking opponent.

    The second Anyo we have teaches you a good combination for countering our own 12 angles of attack (as our 12 angles are designed as an attacking combination that can be used much like an Armara on it's own) and is known as 'Attack & Retreat' as this is what you will be doing when countering the 12 angles so it is also good for teaching you how to play the ranges. So again this can be viewed like an Armara too.

    The third is an Espada 'Y' Daga version of the second which also teaches you the basic principles of when to pop your dagger out for a finishing thrust, but at later stages you are encouraged to add your own personality to all of the solo material and free play it more, Once you have the set drills we tend to improvise more and use them only as a base drill. And all three can be broken down into small peices that can be used in any order depending on what your opponent does and howthey react. So unlike Kata they are not written in stone.

    The vast majority of the material we do is based on partner training with much of the solo stuff being taught in the early stages to give you a method of being able to train if your partner is not around so have not felt the need to introduce anymore than we already have.

    The main core of our curriculum being partner training which as you increase your knowledge is geared more towards freeplay sparring/fighting but not in a sports sense as we only use the sport as a training tool to help increase certain attributes much in the same way you would learn Jab, Cross, Hook and Upper Cut's in Boxing and we accept that the sport is it what it is, a sport which can be a good training tool to help improve certain attributes if used correctly, but saying that Rapid Arnis has done extremely well in various full contact sporting formats over the years so we do use this method of training quite often to help improve certain parts of our training.

    Hope that helps

    Best regards

    Pat
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2009
  13. EmptyHandGuy

    EmptyHandGuy Valued Member

    That makes a lot of sence. Must get a copy of your DVD and maybe attend a seminar if you venture up to these northern parts sometime!
     
  14. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    I am up in Yorkshire a few times during the year taking my guys there through their paces then next time is July 4th when I am organising the Black Eagle Society meeting in Barnsley then on the 5th I am conducting a Rapid Response Course in Sheffield. I am sure I will be back up there a few times more this year too. The door is always open to anyone wishing to learn and have a bit f fun too

    Best regards

    Pat
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2009
  15. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    I've trained, for any appreciable length of time, in three FMA styles. Doce Pares (GM Cacoy's lineage), Modern Arnis, and Inosanto Kali. In DP, I learned a slew of forms that, I believe, were developed by my teachers, the Patalinghug family. (Note that I'm not saying that DP forms originate with the Patalinghug family. Just that I haven't seen the specific sayaw we did performed anywhere else. That's also not a claim to have secret knowledge on my part. I'm not a big fan of sayaw.)

    In Modern Arnis, I know there are anyos. We've only trained them once, which suits me just fine. But I know they're there. And relatively standardized.

    Never did them in Inosanto Kali.



    Stuart
     
  16. EmptyHandGuy

    EmptyHandGuy Valued Member

    I would love to have a go at the BES stuff but as a lowely white belt I think that I need to get a lot more training in first:fight3:
    What is the Rapid Responce Course?
     
  17. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Hi mate, yes the BES is only for the expearianced and foolhardy stickfighter with a screw loose.

    The Rapid Resposnse System is the self defence program we use to teach people about realistically having to deal with edged weapons attack, It has a large foundation in the FMA but is also based on our personal expeariances in having to deal with armed aggressors and is designed not only for the general public, but also for Law Enforcement Officers and Security Personel and it taught within the legalities of the laws of self defence and reasonable force. It is a program that has been taught to many Security Personel and LEO's in many different countries, more recently we taught it to the Federali Police in Mexico who received it very well and are looking to sponsor us for a further trip to teach at their HQ.

    If you get the chance come along and you can then get to see just how easy it is to incorporate into your knowledge.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  18. shootodog

    shootodog restless native

    kata?

    sayaw yes! kata? never!
     
  19. tumbador

    tumbador New Member


    Some have forms most don't have. Those I am familiar with are attribute development tools and guidebooks to understand the principles we use. They also contain tactics, and a few of the techniques ....
     
  20. tumbador

    tumbador New Member

    I beg to disagree ... a few instructor use the word kata ... I used to study with a Cinco Teros\Siete Teros instructor who also taught Karate (as well as Tai Chi), he used the word kata for his forms and his friends also.... (to be honest the said forms had little in common with Karate). Ingat.
     

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