First time BJJ

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by Trewornan, Dec 2, 2013.

  1. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Not BJJ -

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnBOwoOp71M"]Theodorou Academy of Jiu Jitsu Video - Watertown, MA - Recreati - YouTube[/ame]

    http://www.theodorouacademy.com/index.html
     
  2. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    oh dear

    That best part was the kali - and even that was horrible
     
  3. greg1075

    greg1075 Valued Member

    Which goes back to my previous point. In a perfect world where days last 48 hours, maybe the average person would have time to cross train in several arts to get the best training possible. That's not the case. TO me, OP's contention is that he doesn't want to train BJJ only for SD. He's not saying that whatever training he's receiving in grappling right now is nearly as good nor that BJJ would be much better for grappling. Just that he's learning somewhere else prepares him well enough to deal with the most common situations. Whether the latter statement is true or not - i.e. whether he actual school he goes to actually provides good grappling instructions or not is another matter. The main point is that he thinks that BJJ's too heavy emphasis on a specific facet of fighting doesn't make it a good choice for SD would you pick that art and that art only. Again, no one is arguing that cross-training BJJ (or CSW or whatever) to get the best grappling training you can get is not better than not training in it. At least I'm not.



    Definitely. Technique vs atheticism. There's a point where the latter starts offsetting the former. That said, SD is about training for what's you're likely to encounter. When's the last time you fought a 250lb weight lifter? Let's re-adjust expectations here. SD is much more about dealing with street muggers than squaring off with He-man, which is another thing I'd like to point out. The fight was a challenge, not pure SD. The two guys are squaring off. Horrible idea / concept as far as SD goes. For the sorry (trained) ******* who does end up tangling up with such a physical specimen, I'd hope that he'd try his best to deescalate. The other dude is jawing off? Fine, who care. Let it ride. If not, I'd certainly hope he wouldn't be squaring off and start dancing around with the guy. Otherwise, that's two basic SD rules he just royally f'd up. Maybe more depending on context. Which bring me to my last point. If Renzo Gracie has to work hard against this guy, what does it say about how the average BJJer is going to fare with BJJ skills and BJJ skills only?



    Not superior in grappling, but more rounded and preparing a wider variety of situations.

    I'm not putting WJJF on trial - though it might be OP's only real problem rather than "grappling vs hybrid art". As for the video's meathead, I'll go back to the points made above.



    Depends on against what it is deemed to be sufficient enough. Enough a great grappler? No. Against a highly athletic guy with no skills? Depends on the guy's actual athleticism, yours and your actual grappling abilities. Between null and expert, there's a whole lot of skill levels. An average BJJer (presuming he trains BJJ only) can still get pummeled against a very athletic or just a scrappy opponent. If the fight goes to the ground, of course you want the best grappling skills possible. My very original point was that grappling is not the only path toward beating a big guy including the one in the video, and I think that got lost in the shuffle
     
  4. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

  5. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    No one stated otherwise. What was stated was if it does go to the deck you had better have some decent prep, if only so you can regain your feet - which brings us back full circle to the fact that the options the OP put forth are inferior and in all likelihood inadequate for the role
     
  6. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

  7. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    It gets worse:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXmBq2vj2kY"]Dave A BB test part2 - YouTube[/ame]

    Greg, whether this is your school or not, it's a good example of how bad training can actually make you worse at self defense. Who waits for a knife to stab them before starting to try to stop the dude?
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2014
  8. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    "Take my knife... please!"

    (For Henny Youngman fans :p )
     
  9. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    It's precisely this kind of garbage that means you cannot afford to simply "Make do" when it comes to SD work

    Dangerous, stupid and shouldn't be allowed to be sold as a method of combat - utter crap
     
  10. greg1075

    greg1075 Valued Member

    As much as you’re trying to make it, my background isn’t the topic but I'll bite so we can move on. First off the video is a silly promotional. For the record I’ve never set a foot at the Theodorou school (though I have met the head instructor). The instructor I learned JJ from was a Theodorou student years ago before he moved, yes. Does he agree 100% with what he was taught there and is he blindly following that system? No. Do I agree 100% with what I was thought and am I a stereotypical byproduct of the system myself? No, at least I'd hope not. I always push for realistic training and non-cooperative drills as opposed to rehearsed techniques (though they’re designed with a goal in mind) and try to study other materials. I trained Judo as a kid and did Kickboxing and some Krav Maga for a while before JJ. I no longer train JJJ and am currently taking BJJ, CSW, Kali, some thai boxing and started JDK. As silly as the video might look, what I learned there allowed me to be comfortable right away and get a nice headstart in the new arts I’m now learning.

    As for that knife drill, it's a static knife drill. No one's "waiting" for the knife. It might look that way because uke is rushing toward the guy and puts the knife on him but that's not a dynamic knife drill. The scenario only starts when the knife is on the chest. After that, those guys testing are as good as what they put in. I can't help that. Maybe that's a direct flaw of the art/teaching to constantly deliver sub-standard fighters - I won't argue that and was wanting to cross train for quite a while, though that was made difficult timewise and financially (BJJ schools consistently charge way more than others, at least in my area). That said, demos and other promotional tests in TMAs are almost always garbage IMO and as realistic as a Honk Kong B movie.

    So that’s that. Back on topic now.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2014
  11. greg1075

    greg1075 Valued Member

    Plus no one's the this question. What type of BJJ is it we're talking about here? Sports or street? What is "right" in sports can be 100% wrong on the street. Some BJJ schools, even excellent ones, barely touch upon SD BJJ if at all. Though it has the advantage to have a proven track record in MMA (rule limitations non-withstanding), BJJ is slowly going the way of Judo in the way that it's taught and the actual material. If you're lucky to have a good BJJ school that makes SD an integral part of the curriculum, then I say lucky you.
     
  12. peterc8455

    peterc8455 Valued Member

    Can you please clarify what exactly you mean when you say "BJJ is slowly going the way of Judo in the way that it's taught and the actual material"?

    Also you mentioned that you are currently training in BJJ. Are you training under a BJJ black belt? Have you trained at different academies? How long have you been training?
     
  13. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    The "what's right in sports can be wrong..." argument is flawed. Yes if you are attempting helicopter armbars there is a problem, but posture, position, flow and movement are a constant

    Boxing is all sport yet it's toolkit has 100% carryover
     
  14. righty

    righty Valued Member

    What that in response to my first statement regarding Krav Maga or to my second regarding me never being as good as Renzo?
     
  15. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    The latter not the former

    You don't have to "out BJJ a BJJ guy" - you just have to know enough to stop him imposing his gameplan on you
     
  16. righty

    righty Valued Member

    So what is your opinion on my first comment "So if we replaced WJJF in this thread with something like good quality Krav Maga that teaches more of a jack-of-all-trades methodology from a jack-of-all-trades teacher would many of you still hold the position you have expressed?"
     
  17. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Personally? Yes

    I have trained against enough world class grapplers to know I cannot out grapple them in their game; and when i say "world class" that is not hyperbole or exaggeration. Unless your address groundfighting with base, posture, timing etc..then all the dirty tricks in teh world will avail you nought

    Now some systems/stylists have that built in to what they teach (I do in my expression of JKD) but even then it is drilled elsewhere. My friend John who I mentioned earlier trains in BJJ and is a high level Krav guy...if he goes to BJJ to address the ground then what does that tell you about the necessity?

    My own Sifu was just awarded his purple by Marcel Louzado and I train with Harry Smith every chance I get (and if you wantto talk about fighting a BIG skiled guy he is terrifying)

    A "jack of all trades" teacher should be a melting pot for the skills you learn elsewhere. It's one reason I keep my kali, grappling and striking classes as individual classes in tehir own right - so when you come to my JKD I don;t have to waste time fixing basics
     
  18. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Can you explain sports bjj vs street bjj for me? Is the latter one that involves statements like 'I could bite your kneecaps off from here' during an Oma plata defense?

    Seriously, aren't you trying to bring in the d3adly side of bjj?
     
  19. righty

    righty Valued Member

    Yes but there is something to be said of your typical student who might make it to training 3 times a week.

    Now they could split those classes up between 2 or 3 arts but then you lack continuity and it makes it more difficult to progress in all of them. Or you could do more of a jack of all trades class such as good Krav Maga or JJJ. But for a beginner I think it's best to stick with one art, and there's benefits to both taking a specialist art and a more general art first. And let's face it, everyone who has been in the martial arts for a while will have witness the attrition rates and know the most people remain beginners.

    If a Krav guy trained BJJ I don't think of it as being a 'necessity' at all. Yes it's going to make his groundwork better, just as boxing will likely improve his striking but he is still going to be limited in the amount of this he can pass on to his students simply due to lack of time as he will be forced to split any teaching between different areas.

    My BJJ instructor (black belt) is currently taking Judo classes. That doesn't mean his takedowns are bad or he cannot teach them.
     
  20. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    The "good' becomes pertinent - how do you tell?

    That's why you should look to what they train in - if you cannot make it to BJJ for whatever reason but your Instructor does you will at least know you are getting exposure to it via what is being passed on. It also means that their style has context
     

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