First time BJJ

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by Trewornan, Dec 2, 2013.

  1. righty

    righty Valued Member

    If sub par grappling is good enough, then how long must you train BJJ to come up at least up to par?
     
  2. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I think you have little to no experience in BJJ to be honest

    The contention was not "which gives me the best chance against another grappler?" but rather "which addresses the gap in my game?" - the OP stated he believed that his existing training covered those bases; they don't

    The point of me putting in a "BJJ vs bodybuilder" seemed to be lost on you so let me elaborate a small amount - you had a specialist on the ground who had to really work to get a musclebound oaf into any position. If he had NOT been a specialist this would have clearly been stacked in favor of the oaf had things hit the ground. second rate groundwork would not cut it
     
  3. greg1075

    greg1075 Valued Member

    That's a problem with the school itself. That's a different issue altogether imo.
     
  4. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    All three were from different schools.
    There training methology consistantly produces substandard fighters.
     
  5. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    So much truth I weep with joy
     
  6. greg1075

    greg1075 Valued Member

    That seems to be a knock on the wjjf more than anything else. Just to be clear, I'm not debating the merit (or lack thereof) of the specific school where OP trains at all - I've read some pretty bad reports about them actually.


    Precisely. Let's say you study BJJ and you're good. You tangle up with someone who does BJJ too and is an expert. What then? You have no other training and no tools in your arsenal. You're fighting on his terms and he's better than you. That doesn't bode well at all.

    Many many people also take piano lessons. Doesn't mean they're any good. Students retention is very poor. The odds you get in an unavoidable fight with an expert MA are slim and there's nothing wrong with training for the common. I am sticking with that. There's no direct correlation between the willingness to escalate and skills. Confidence doesn't mean you actually have the tools to back it up. They might be bar brawlers. They might be high. They might be hotheads. In my experience, the more skilled the person, the less they feel the need to pump their chest and mouth off, especially if they understand the basic premise of SD: Avoid the fight.

    No one is advocating to sacrifice training quality for quantity.


    I don't think anyone made that claim.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2014
  7. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I've trained in the WJJF and also similar type orgs - vastly more chaff than wheat


    If you DON'T study BJJ (or equivalent - I am more CACC myself) then it bodes even worse



    Training for "the common" is "lowest common denaminator" thinking. Eevn if that was a tactically sound idea (and it isn't) it is still no excuse for accepting crappy training - which brings is back to the bodybuilder scenario

    It is unfortunatley inherent in the systems and the orgs - and as often as not the training methodology

    Actually phrases like " I already have that covered" are making precisely that claim
     
  8. greg1075

    greg1075 Valued Member

    By school I meant wjjf, not the actual affiliate(s).
     
  9. greg1075

    greg1075 Valued Member

    That statement incomplete IMO. OP may want to clarify, but to me it seems that he's to trying to determine what art offers the most comprehensive approach to SD in the optic of picking one art and one art only. That's clearly implied when he states that BJJ would be a good second choice. Now he may be incorrect in thinking that BJJ doesn't covered specific topics (eye gouges, bites etc) but imo correct in his overall assessment that BJJ is 1) not a comprehensive art 2) has a potentially extremely dangerous approach in some SD scenarios. Like I said earlier, in the perfect world, everyone would cross train to get the best possible training in all phases of the fight - but that's just not realistic. Most people pick one art/discipline and when they do, that art ought to cover as much as ground as possible; without sacrificing quality for quantity - that's a given.
     
  10. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    And again in response to your points I raise the contention you have no BJJ experience and are basing it entirely off "oh it's just groundfighting" perceived wisdom
    - which is simply not true
     
  11. greg1075

    greg1075 Valued Member

    This argument keeps coming around yet no one is making the claim that crappy training is ok. It's time to drop it.

    I don't think so. For this to be true, you'd have to determine what constitutes subpar grappling in the context of SD, and demonstrate that comprehensive arts as primary arts are incapable to deliver skills above that level. More specifically, you'd have to ascertain that OP knows his grappling training is subpar yet thinks it's good enough. I don't think that's the case. He knows it's not best compared to other grappling disciplines (BJJ, CSW whatever) but that it offers him with enough knowledge and skills to deal with most situations. After that, determining whether his contention is grounded in reality (i.e. the training quality of his specific system/school) is a different matter.
     
  12. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    More a knock against the idea that you don't need to seek out experts in grappling to use grappling in self defense (which is what the OP has said).

    How does this gel with the fact that an untrained body builder was able to take an expert level grappler to the ground? He got the takedown. He also gave Renzo more trouble than many expert martial artists, despite their years of training. All he had going for him was aggression, a willingness to fight and a great deal of athleticism. Just because someone has not specifically trained for fighting does not mean that they will not be a handful, nor does it mean that they will not triumph against a martial artist.

    OP is advocating the idea that because a martial art addresses ground grappling as well as striking cursorily that it is superior to a martial art that addresses ground grappling in depth. Let's take a look at an expert level WJJF person:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ng3pMq5cOx0"]WJJF DVD - Black Belt.mp4 - YouTube[/ame]

    Do you think someone trained in this manner would have fared as well against the bodybuilder, even with his lack of training?

    Then we're reading different threads :]

    "b) Given point "a" the ground fighting I already learn in JJJ and Krav Maga is probably already sufficient assuming I never end up fighting a BJJ expert."

    This assumption would not have been borne out against the aggressive body builder.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2014
  13. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    I'm just going to crop dust this thread with a thought to ponder, it is something that I may have raised in the past and it feels like a good time to raise it again, just like that story where your uncle pooped his pants outside the White House and had nothing to do but leave his kegs in the local McDonald's that he brings up every Hanuka.

    We constantly have a mix of people in MAPland talking from the following perspectives:

    1. Training for years, made sacrifices not excuses for attending the best training available.
    2. Not trained at all
    3. Trained a bit
    4. Trained a bit longer and realized when they trained a bit it was all a load of nonsense

    If you are in camps 2-4 you are speaking more from an idealistic perspective, this is OK but it is worth acknowledging.

    If you are in camp 1 you probably should be getting more respect and acknowledgement than you do, but realize that these folk simply don't know any better yet, so its OK, breathe.

    Now, to answer the question what's the best, or what is needed, or what will do or whatever it is - the answer is not in the art.

    The answer is in your mind.

    Once you are comfortable being you, you have found the art.

    There is no art that you can study that means you cannot lose, there is no art that will protect you if you are scared. There is only the learning through study to accept yourself, and your weaknesses and embrace them.

    It is fair to say that if you push yourself through in an art like BJJ that you will have a better understanding of what your capabilities are, but at the same time it is fair to say that it is OK to go through life without knowing what your capabilities are.

    The only way to go through life is to be happy when you know your capabilities, and if you think another's way is wrong/flawed/different then you need to experience it. I know that I don't need to test out any of the other systems of Krav, JJJ etc because I respect the people that do them for the sake of respecting study, and I know that there is nothing in the Ryu that can be more intense than where I am now.

    Now, training is about finding the next opponent who can challenge me, and I am far from running out of those before I can even think about where I am to think about the next art.

    But the key is acceptance, being comfortable with yourself - even if that seems to be in Willy Wonker World. Don't think or say that doing something cheaper or quicker is 'enough' when a person has dedicated blood sweat and tears to testing what 'enough' really means.
     
  14. righty

    righty Valued Member

    So if we replaced WJJF in this thread with something like good quality Krav Maga that teaches more of a jack-of-all-trades methodology from a jack-of-all-trades teacher would many of you still hold the position you have expressed?

    The video of the body builder to me personally does not mean much. As a grappler I am being realistic that I'm probably not going to achieve the standard in that video. So it appears I may be screwed regardless of what I train.
     
  15. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    I would. I have no idea what the WJJF is.
     
  16. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    It will just take you longer and you may take a few lumps extra but it can be done
     
  17. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    World Ju Jitsu Federation.....you aren't missing much
     
  18. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Well, at least they spell it right.
     
  19. greg1075

    greg1075 Valued Member

    No.
     
  20. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    So your BJJ background is.....?
     

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