Discussion in 'Silat' started by Kiai Carita, Jul 10, 2005.
Great! If you need anything let us know.
Good luck with your efforts, wish I could be there myself but have to be content with life in sunny spain instead ¿
Spoke to chegu ariffin and he would be delighted to come down for a kembangan party - <external discussion forum link removed>
salaams to all Uk persilat - keeping it real.
ciao for now
sulaiman -silat gayong spain
Thanks for the support from Spain, Sulaiman. Unfortunately your link to contact Cikgu Arifin was deleted by the moderators. Please PM me with the link. Thank you again for speaking to Cikgu Arifin about this.
I am now looking at Sunday September 11 for the D-day, where the Sekar Gedhogan Community Gamelan Orchestra and London pesilats will invite the public to attend a free silat flower dance exhibition, as an offering to the idea of an ethic of non-violence.
My friend SB from Walisongo silat will be back from West Jawa next week and after talking to him, I will make an invitation post on the events forum. As far as I know, SB and Walisongo silat are the most active and have the highest profile in London. Also they are very much into kembangan, or silat seni if you like.
Salam Kiai Carita,
just wondering if you are or anyone else is playing any Kembangan this sunday evening at Camden. It would be nice to to come and watch or even take part for a bit of fun. Im a rusty pesilat with two woden legs and I havnt done any kembangan to music in quite a while. Im often in the area on a sunday as I have relatives close by. It would be nice to meet for a coffee and chat if your around and have some time.
Assalaamu'alaikum brother Abdullah,
We are doing kembangan this Sunday after we close shop. We begin between 7-8 PM. The shop is called Kalimantan Creations in the Stables Market, Chalkfarm Road. Telephone <removed per the TOS>. Please come.
This is an interesting thread indeed.
As a Javanese who speaks fair to passable English, I would like state unequivocably that there is no fault in Kiai Carita's posts in content or intention.
That is not surprising as the good Kiai is a dalang in every sense of the word and is quite well known (if not famous) in some Javanese circles. I'm afraid dear friends, as far as Javanese cultural tradition is concerned, the Kiai is a font on knowledge (sorry KC ).
I also have my traditional family resources to back up that claim.
Javanese tradisi has for the most part an oral tradition. The story teller, the dalang holds an office of immense importance in a community. They work in the mythology of the Mahabaratha into the fabric of everyday life and give meaning to the events of change experienced by a culture. Within change there is also a sense of the permanent as the dalang links the present to the past. Kiai Carita is a dalang.
The information he has regarding living Javanese culture (kejawen), is important and correct, and should be of interest to anyone studying Javanese styles of silat.
If you think otherwise, that is fine, but isn't it best to be better informed in the interest of the authenticity of your own silat?
He is also correct with regard to the keris and its uses.
I mean no disrespect, but you are simply another member on a forum, I dont know who you are, where you are, expect for what you tell me.
The same can be said of me, by you. But my implication is that I still dis-believe the concept that a keris is not acceptable as a weapon, simply because the whole lineage of my instructors believe otherwise, and I am more likely to believe what they can show/prove to me, than what an unknown person on the internet says, you see what I am saying??? Its not a slur on anyone, but a reminder that statements such as "He is right, cos I say so" really doesnt constitute anything, you could be friends for all the rest of us know.
Just an other guy on the keris
Assalamu'alaikum Warohmatullahi Wabarokatuh,
Here is O'ong Maryono's take on the keris. I cut and paste it from the KPS Nusantara web forum. Someone there had posted asking why the kujang is not used in the IPSI competitions of 'silat seni'. If you don't understand Indonesian I will translate below.
Jikalau Kujang kurang terkenal dan tidak dipergunakan sebagai senjata dalam pertandingan pencak silat seni versi IPSI (golok dan toya), itu sebenarnya beralasan sangat kuat. Kujang dan Keris Jawa dalam tatanan senjata dalam tradisi kita , adalah "pusaka" yang namanya pusaka, dibuka saja setahun sekali untuk dimandikan pada bulan suro, kujang dan keris tidak dipergunakan untuk berperang, hanya diselipkan dipinggang, diperlakukan barang yang sakti dan melindungi pemakainya. orang tua-tua dahulu berperang dengan tombak, pedang, golok dan panah. Jadi Keris atau Kujang adalah simbul keagungan pemakainya. Berbeda dengan di Malaysia, Thailand Selatan dan Filipina Selatan , kerisnya besar-besar seperti keris Bali, mereka pergunakan untuk berperang, Keris pusaka yang kecil dan sakti diselipkan dipinggang dalam arena peperangan. Hanya pangkatnya yang berbeda, bentuknya sama adalah senjata. Sekian dahulu yah,
The kujang is not that well known and is not used in the IPSI silat seni competitions that use the golok and toya, and there is a strong reason for this. Kujang and the Jawa keris in the structure of weaponry in our traditions
are called 'pusaka' and a pusaka is only opened once a year to be bathed in the month of Suro. The kujang and the keris are not wielded in battle, they are only worn on the waist and are treated as powerful objects that protect the bearer. Our elders fought with spears, swords (pedang), golok and arrows. So the keris or the kujang are symbols of the nobility of the bearer. This is different to the situation in Malaysia, South Thailand and the Southern Philippines. Their kerises are big like Bali keris and they do use them to fight. The small and powerful pusaka keris is kept in on the waist during battle. It is just their status that is different as they have the same form of a weapon. Hope this is enough for now, yaaah, ciao, O'ong Maryono.
Hope O'ong Maryono's answer to a forumite on his website can help explain why you never have people in Jawa prancing around with their keris drawn. If you want to prance around with a keris you can use the Sumatra keris, the Malay keris, the Thai keris or the Philippine sundang. All these are keris too and can and are used to fight according to the adat of the people concerned but using the Jawa keris for silat is not right according to Jawa adat.
The late keris expert from Jawa, Bambang Harsrinuksmo in the forward to his Ensiklopedi Keris (Gramedia, Jakarta, 2004, page 26) says this (translated by me) :
One thing apparently difficult for Westerners to grasp, is the fact that keris were never forged by the Mpu with the intentions of using the keris as a tool to kill. Many books written by Westerners call the keris an other stabbing weapon like a dagger or a poignard. However there is a great difference between them. A dagger, a bayonet, a poignard is purposely forged to stab an enemy, to hurt and even to kill. The keris is forged to be a pusaka or a sipat kandel (make you more confident) and it is believed that it has the power to protect and bring good fortune and prosperity to the bearer.
The keris brandished by Mr. Sanders on the front page of your website would appear to be a dhapur Nagasasra (or Nagaraja in Solo, if the Naga head wears a crown like worn by Krisna in wayang kulit) with nine luks. It appears to be a Jawa blade in Sunda dress but the photo is not that clear on my monitor. It looks like a newly made Madura blade with expensive kinatah emas gold I suppose this is one reason you firmly believe that the Jawa keris is used to fight physically.
Contrary to the information supplied on the above mentioned site, the keris was around long before the Majapahit Empire stood. The keris began to emerge in Jawa history as the dhapur Bethok Buddha during the 6'th Century. From the Bethok Buddha came the dhapur Brojol, Tilam Upih, and the various Jalak dhapurs. Then, from the Sunda kingdom of Segaluh before the 10th century, came the wavy blades but it is not true that the more waves the higher the status of the bearer like stated in the site.
The Nagaraja Luk 9 like the one brandished by Mr Sanders is a prayer by the Mpu asking God to grant the bearer strong energy and charisma so that (s)he might be a good leader and so that his (her) subordinates fear and obey him (her). Mr Sanders' info on the pamor sanak is also mistaken, as pamor sanak is not the best pamor, rather it is a lower quality pamor where the pamor and the iron nearly melt together and do not contrast. The rest of the info on keris there is more or less correct except the visual brandishing of the blade which is ora ilok in Jawa and pamali in Sunda, meaning taboo.
What Indonesian antique dealers call keris Majapahit are not the works of the Majapahit Empire, rather they are 'offering keris' or keris sajen, and were used as offerings to gods until fairly recently. They are often recovered in ricefields because they used to be part of the offerings to the rice goddess Dewi Sri left to rust in the rice fields. They are called Majapahit keris to trick tourists and gulible Indonesian klenik lovers out of thier money. Majapahit keris were very well made and many are still in perfect shape now more than half a millenia after they left the anvil.
The best keris maker ever was Mpu Supa Mandragi of Majapahit, he was made Prince called Pangeran Sedayu because of his skills. Pangeran Sedayu's lineage is still clear and his great-great grandson is Mpu Djenoharumbrodjo of Yogyakarta who still makes keris squatting on the floor just out of town. The golden age of the keris continued to rise with the fall of Majapahit, and a grandson of Mpu Pangeran Sedayu, Mpu Supa Anom lived to a very ripe age during the Mataram era of Sultan Agung. Mpu Supa Anom's works are also considered to be masterpeices.
I am very interested to know how your teachers prove to you that the keris Jawa is used for fighting. How can Mr Sanders prove this or that regarding the keris when he makes such an elemental 'cultural mistake' as brandishing his Jawa blade in front of the global www audience which include many Jawanese who have sound knowledge of the keris from years of experience and discussion and handling of hundreds of blades? If you want to learn more of the Jawa keris I recomend you visit Pak Mansyur Hidayat of Surabaya's keris educational website @ http://keris.fotopic.net . Pak Mansyur has some blades probably made by Mpu Supa Anom with good pics too! I hope you enjoy!
Wal billahi Taufiq wal hidayah,
Assalamu'alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh,
Peace to all,
This is about the fifth time you have lead some form of attack on Pendekar Sanders you seem to have definately got a bee in your bonet with him and us
Please feel free to contact Pendekar Sanders personally on his e mail link on his website and he will answer any question you may have on the keris. Please leave a telephone number so he may call you.
One of Pendekar Sanders teacher was Pendekar Jafri who I believe taught Mr Sanders how to use the Keris in fighting. Pendekar Sanders also has a dvd which he sells to the general public on Keris fighting. I'm also teaching an open seminar in Dublin in December where I will be teaching how to use the Keris in Combat and anyone who doesnt believe the keris cant be use in combat are more than welcome to come along. I'm really not that interested to be honest in who made what and where and what some historian views are on this, but I've train personally with Malysian and Indonesian Silat teachers along with my Teacher Pendekar Sanders who have taught me how to use the keris in fighting, so I experience it at first hand. In Pukulan Cimande Pusaka we can use the Keris in fighting, that still doesnt mean all style of silat can. As silat pupil said in another thread where you attack us also. The style we teach is for combat. If it doesnt work we wouldnt teach it. If you totally believe the keris cant be use in combat come along to the keris workshop and you can play with some of the silat students who can handle a keris
"wolf in sheep clothing is still a wolf" - Irish saying
Some people may find the following interesting. Up to now we have had Kiai going on about how the keris was not used in combat. After visiting some website I came accross the following bits of info.
Mr Dipak Rai Indoinesian Researcher and Free lance writer
While today the keris is mostly a ceremonial blade, in the past it was used for combat. Because of the tang design, the blade could not be used for any sort of slashing attack. Any sideways force would cause the blade to rotate on the tang, or would just break it off completely. Instead, the blade was used exclusively in a thrusting manner, and this method often involved using the scabbard along with the blade as a blocking tool. Since a thrusting attack carries little force in any direction except straight forward, even a fragile wooden scabbard can move an attack off-line. This thrusting useage is also seen in the symbolism of the wavy blade. The wavy blades belong to warriors and represent lightning bolts.
Mr Ramon Villardo writing on the Kris dagger and sword quoted
Before the invention of the gun, the knife was generally regarded as the most used weapon. In its many shapes and sizes, it is found in all nations throughout the ages. In South East Asia, the most widely used and popular knife is the KRIS. It is a very old weapon which survives even to this day. The kris is believed to have originated in Java, Indonesia in the 14th century by a Janggalo king named Inakto Pali. From Java it was then exported to other places in Asia (i.e., Malaysia, Singapore, Burma, Borneo and the Philippines).
Most importantly, the kris serves three purposes:
1)an object of cult,
2)a fighting weapon
3)an execution devise.
Mr Ee Liu Wan wrote the following
The keris was particularly useful for fighting in confined spaces, such as inside a building or in the jungle, where longer weapons would be most cumbersome.
If it was once a weapon, it is now more an object of reverence and respect
Functionally, the kris is not a slashing weapon like a bowie knife or other fighting knife, but rather a stabbing instrument. The kris was mostly out-matched against anything other than another kris. If a kris fighter had stealth on his side, the kris was lethal. There are many stories of a kris being made especially for killing a specific person.
One of the most famous folk stories from Java describes a legendary kris bladesmith, called Mpu Gandring, and his impatient customer, Ken Arok. Ken Arok wanted to order a powerful Kris to kill the chieftain of Tumapel, Tunggul Ametung. Ken Arok eventually stabbed the old bladesmith to death because he kept delaying the scheduled completion of the kris, which Ken Arok had probably ordered several months before. Dying, the bladesmith prophesied that the unfinished or incomplete kris would kill seven men, including Ken Arok. The prophecy finally came true, and the unfinished kris of Mpu Gandring disappeared.
Encyclopedia - Nationmaster quoted the following
Krises were worn everyday and at special ceremonies, with heirloom blades being handed down through successive generations. Yearly cleanings, required for as part of the spirituality and mythology around the weapon, often leaves ancient blades worn and thin. In everyday life and at events, a man usually only wore one kris. Women sometimes also wore krises, though of a smaller size than a man’s. In battle, a man would wear three krises: one of his own, one from his father-in-law and one a family heirloom. The other krises served as parrying daggers. If the warrior didn’t have another kris to parry with, he used the sheath. Krises were often broken in battle and required repairs. A warrior’s location determined what repair materials he had. It isn’t unusual to find a kris with fittings from several areas. For example, a kris may have a blade from Java, a handle from Bali and a sheath from Madura.
In many parts of Malaysia and Indonesia, the kris was the weapon for execution. The specialized kris, called an executioner’s kris, had a long, straight, slender blade. The condemned knelt before the executioner, who placed a wad of cotton or similar material of the subject’s shoulder/clavicle area. The kris blade was inserted through the material and entered the body behind the clavicle. The blade pierced the subclavian artery and the heart. Upon withdrawal, the cotton wiped the blade clean. Death was fairly quick.
If Kiai needs I can place many more articles like the following, which does show the keris can have combat application. It would personally be my chosen weapon to use in a fight, but if I needed to I and all of my teachers could used it along with my students. I'm more than willing to teach this knowledge to any student who wish to learn how to use the keris in combat.As I mention before not all styles of Silat know how to use the Kris in Combat, if you want to learn make sure you find a style that does teach it, and hasnt forgot this piece of knowledge.
My APOLGIES TO ALL READERS
I forgot a simple word which I should have inserted
" It would not personally be my chosen weapon to use in a fight, but if I needed to I and all of my teachers could used it along with my students. I'm more than willing to teach this knowledge to any student who wish to learn how to use the keris in combat."
Taboo to fight with keris Jawa
Assalaamu'alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh,
No one says that the keris can't be used to fight.
Please read my post carefully and not in total combat style as you keep on perceiving an attack when actually I am just sharing experience and making educated comments on a public website that is in the business of promoting itself through Cimande silat. Of course the most important and valuable comment I can give is critisism for without critic an art can not develop. If you want me to post praise I can do it easily but I suppose you already get alot of that. Is it not enough?
Things like the treatment of Jawa keris, the mistake in the Arabic of the certificate plus the wording of it, and also the way you guys tribally gang on me when I begin a discourse that is critical to the way you present MY CULTURE really reflects on your pendekarship, don't you think? There is nothing wrong in making mistakes as long as you don't close your mind to the truth. PM me and I will tell you which part of the Arabic in the certificate is wrong and thus shows that the writer of the certificate did not habitually say salaams.
In Malaysian silat the keris is used but in Jawa, no, period, even if Mr Jafri did use it and teach it to Mr Sanders, if it was Jawa silat in Jawa it is still ora ilok, pamali, taboo. Taboo for Jawa but not for Sumatra, Bugis, Melayu, or bangsa Moro, Sulu.
You use the words Cimande, Pusaka, Keris, which are all meaningfull words that contain much of our cultural ideals, but when you use them with a new twist and definition but say that it is the real way, that is deceiving the public. However if you are not aware of the twists that have happened in the exchange of culture it is not deception, it is a simple, honest, mistake. The type of mistake everyone makes when they plunge into another culture.
Do you ever wonder what effect on the Cimande village this global interest on that tiny place has? Good and bad come from it you know it is not all good. Last night I stayed up all night talking to Mang Ipin, the Cimande representative from the Indonesian Embassy in London. Have you ever met him? He has been in London for five years now and is expert on mending bones and muscles as all Cimande practitioners are. Mang Ipin was rather excited by what he saw on your website and felt that he needed to ring his Guru, Haji Aos Suganda son of the late Haji Dimyati in the village of Cimande to inform him about what he saw.
One thing I found out was that it might be that actually, Mbah Khoir was not the originator of the Cimande style even though this has been what has been told to people outside Cimande. Mbah Khoir was one of four students, of .......... the name of our karuhun you should know, right? His grave is before you enter the Cimande village. An other thing I found out was that the famous minyak balur Cimande is made of amongst other things, earth-worms!
It is such a shame you are not interested in the history or culture surrounding silat in general and Cimande and Jawa and Sunda and Islam in particular, because in this forum which is to me a sacred gelanggang of words, it is precisely the cultural and spiritual side of silat we can explore.
Wal billahi taufiq wal hidayah,
Wa'alaikumsalaam Warohmatullahi Wabarakatuh,
Pendekar Sanders has asked me to post the following in reponse and the wording is directly from him.
To all who have read the thread on the Keris > I advise you to buy my Keris Book Or Pendekr gier Giesens Kris Book. I find it once again intersting in this case that just because a Person comes from Indonesia people assume that makes them an expert or because they can read the langauge. such bias and prejuduce is silly. I probably have one of the largest Keris Colllections in the USA . I have Spent many hours with some Of the top Keris experts in Indonesia including those from the Palace at Solo and Sigon Barong Keris Corner In Solo. The Current Ipsi regulations and beliefs have Zero interest to me . My teachers in the 70's and 80's had nothing to do with the IPSI at that time as they felt they had lost and or were not promoting the ancient ways enough . In My book on the keris I give the complete description of how the keris was formed for fighting where it came from , how it was used . I was given this knowledge by my old teachers as they were taught from there teachers and they laughed at those who thought it was only for decoration as a sad fact of the new generation . As for a Pusaka I understand this fully as I honor those blades and study the various Pamor, dapur and the tangu of the blade. A Pusaka can be a lot of things not just a keris . I explain in my book why the metal was good for holding the energy etc but you are talking of two seperate things. A blade could be purelya combat blade with no energy put by the empu , or the material, or the owner .(three ways a Keris can have a charge ) Then it can be drawn and shown at will . Others with the proper life will be drawn when it is time to execute the purpose of the blade. SOME of these purposes were combative and produced a result at a distance and or combined with the physical. As an example in Solo a big secret is many of the warriors changed the Gnaja of the keris before going into battle and the orriginal Ganja was keptat the kraton for two reasons. ONE if the warrior WHILE FIGHTING WITH THE KERIS had the Ganja noticed by the opponent it was believed the other person may have a mantra that could cancel the effects of the keris ,this could be done if he could see the pamor on the ganja and by other means.2. If the warrior was killed and his body lost but the keris found it would be matched the the real ganja of the blade and then the missing warrior identified. in other places having the Ganja movable was not seen as a good thing as the power of the blade would be erratic if it had a loose ganja. Many Combative keris were made by the empu to release the magick into the body of the opponent when struck as another example besides the known ones to protect the wearer etc . By the Way the Balinese empus first came right to Bali from the crumbling Majaphait empire andn so their craft remained more to the old ways , like it or not that is a fact . Today in java there is maybe one emou still making blade s the old ways and one on Bali . Only by the waywhen one understands the full meaning of the construction of the keris for both physical use AND magick can one fully appreciate the thought that went into the blade andn then you will see it is not the inefectual dagger thought by most European writers andn it seems many Indonesians. Iwil not elaborate on this more but offer for proof my book and its contents. Bythe way when this book was taken to java by Pendekar Ger Giesen andn shown to a very high ly regarded keris expert he said it was information that should not be given to the average person as he thought I had revealed to many long hidden secrets . My students know how to use the keris and why that is really all I care. Others can join us and learn or quote what ever they wish and remain removed from these ancient ways if they prefer. Everyone has a choice , I for one am glad I was taught and can pass it on to anyone who wants to learn and AT ONCE when shown will see how much sense it realy makes . I suggest my students make no more of this and gladly accept those who want to have the knowledge and let the rest be happy with what they have . I take a back seat to one one on this information I dont care how long there name is or where they come from . I was taught what I was taught . I also suggest everyone go to my site and then to the Russian link by Guru ted Walls and read carefuylly his article on prejuduce in the martial arts which explains a lot . By the Way small kudis were used only for magick and crop purposes larger ones have a standing history of combat, again a Leader in cimande village Pendekar Mama openly shows Kujang Jurus, please tell him he is wrong . Pendekar Jafri also taught them as they were also taught by the Late Pendekar Herman Suwanda and now his sister from Pedepokan Suwanda in java, tell them also. Pendekar Sanders
I will answer some of your statements but firstly the main reason for your attacks on us all started when you lost your head when "cimandesilat" didnt turn up for your second evening of dance. Ever since then you have use this forum to try and pick holes in our system you dont seem to attack any other silat grouping so it must seem to be us. You not willing to meet up and train with us instead you want to play internet games.
No one says that the keris can't be used to fight.
Well what are you saying stick to one view Yes or No The way you been writing it seem to be saying it wasnt use for fighting and you were implying we were wrong in saying it could be use for fighting
"It is such a shame you are not interested in the history or culture surrounding silat in general and Cimande and Jawa and Sunda and Islam in particular, because in this forum which is to me a sacred gelanggang of words, it is precisely the cultural and spiritual side of silat we can explore."
Firstly I have no interest in becoming Muslim I am Roman Catholic with a strong back ground in Celtic knowledge. I not against any other people religion, just dont think that because we do silat we all have to be Muslim, because that is totally nonsence. If you want to preach Islam to me you can find another group. At this moment in time that is a very hot topic in this part of the World. I'm interested in silat history in general, but not from you. you have one view which I personally think is tainted. If Im wrong so be it, but I'm very happy and trust my teacher alot more than someone who I only know from the internet.
"If you want me to post praise I can do it easily but I suppose you already get alot of that. Is it not enough? "
What this all about?? I never asked you for any praise. In fact I never asked nor want anything for you, except not to pull into your threads, which you seem totally unable to do. I dont do silat to get some type of approveful from you
Insh'Allah I shall be at camden tomorow evening, I have sent u a private message.
Guru Liam, Thanks for the post from Pendeckar Sanders. By the way, I have held Guru Walls in the highest esteem as one of my greatest teachers.
There's an awful lot of historical evidence including eye witness accounts of keris being used as a weapon in what is now Indonesia and Malaysia. Either every single one of them was lying in order to discredit Kiai centuries later and the aliran that teach the keris as a weapon all made it up recently or, heavens forfend, Kiai is incorrect.
Personally I'm leaning towards option B.
Furthermore, there are plenty of old Hindu and Buddhist temples in the Archipelago and plenty of records of polythiest practices in earlier times. Indonesia as a concept is very new. The area is incredibly culturally diverse. The idea that everyone there was animist and monotheistic before the coming if Islam must be seen as a pleasant bit of fantasy and pro-Pancasila propaganda. Myth with at most a light dusting of fact.
Know your Enemy.....
Salams to all on this forum,
I seems clear to me that there has been some crossed wires on this thread. Its a shame that people get so angered so easily. I for one dont believe that Kiai Carita had any bad intentions in pointing out the things he did, its a shame that maybe it was taken out of context and seen as personal attacks.
And yet he has offered his apologies several times.
From the begining of this thread it was clear to me that Kiai Carita was really trying to make an effort in bringing pesilats together through this kembangan event for the sake of frienship and unity.
Many of us have been on the Uk silat scene for a number of years, and as we all know one school doesnt get on with the next and that really pretty much goes for the majority of the Uk silat clubs.
All of us who claim to learn silat are all aware of the spiritual side regardless of creed etc. Im sure we have all learned that a major rule in warfare is to KNOW YOUR ENEMY.
As a muslim (my view) I have been taught in my silat trianing that we have 4 ENEMIES (sorry bro suleiman if i beat u to it )
2. Nafs (The Ego)
3. Hawa (Vain Desires)
4. Dunia (this passing world)
Now i dont want to bore anyone with my religious views so il keep my point as brief as i can.
Our 1st and main enemy as a "Human Being" is SATAN, as we know from the Holy Qu'ran Satan's promise to Allah Swt is "I will send all the children of Adam astray but a few"
Satan's role is to make men fight amongst each other, we call him the sneaking whisperer for he whispers discord and confusion in the hearts of men. When we argue satan is winning and happy, Imagine what a brotherhood we would be in the Uk if all the different schools got along.
We as Pesilat should all be learning to RECOGNISE and how to FIGHT our one true enemy Satan. This should be our primary goal of self defence, anyone not learning to fight this Real enemy it would be clear to say that they are wasting their time doing silat.
So whoever is claiming to be learning especially Kebatinan, Jurus Batin, tanaga dalam, magick, kebal or whatever ilmu and they cant even recognise their one true enemy they must be dreaming.
People pride themselves on their martial arts skill, their number of years training, their achivements and titles etc. but if we all (including me) take a look in the mirror, and are honest with ourselves and ask a simple question such as ive trained for x amount of years, and when was the last time i got into a fight. we all have this notion that we must learn to defend ourselves from the mean streets of london etc etc. but the truth is most of us live a civilized western society with laws, police ambulance etc and have pretty safe lives. not like some parts of the world where if you run someone over u better not get out of your car cause a mob is waiting for you. most of us live nowadays in pretty safe envinroments.
So we all end up building secret pride within ourselves especially when we start to get good at silat. Whoever is cliaming himself to be guru, maha guru, pendekar, panglima, palahwan, wali or sheikh and kicks as hard as a donkey the minute hes slightly offended needs take a good look at himself.
Satan is our prime enemy, so if we are all trying to be sincere then we should get over all our problems with one another and unite as real brothers and pesilat.
Its obvious Kiai Carita is trying to his best as an individual not belonging to any school or association to bring us together for the sake of brotherhood.
Satan is very clever and can see the power that we would be if we were all united. so he is and will do very best to lead us astray everyway. Silat Batin is about fighting the devils within us and around us not each other.
We are only allowed 4 Enemies, whoever had a 5th enemy Allah's Curse be upon him.
Dont be fooled, try to see the bigger picture,
KNOW YOUR ENEMY!!!!!
Flawed Keris Knowledge
Assalaamu'alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh,
This discussion on the keris and the culture surrounding it is interesting. Isn't it great that we can have dissagreements without falling into flames? This shows that contrary to the worries of Silatliam, we are all mature pesilat. Alhamdulillah for that.
Pendekar Sanders has asked me to post the following in reponse and the wording is directly from him.
I have Spent many hours with some Of the top Keris experts in Indonesia including those from the Palace at Solo and Sigon Barong Keris Corner In Solo.
Wow, I spent many hours of my childhood with my brother and sister and grandmother playing in the royal carriages in the Palace of Solo before it was burnt down and lived in Solo several years but have not heard of Sigon Barong Keris Corner. What is it? Who was your informant in the Palace?
In My book on the keris I give the complete description of how the keris was formed for fighting where it came from , how it was used .
Wow, you must have supernatural knowledge for the keris experts in Jawa, Bali, and Malaysia now are still researching the keris and no one can give a complete description. Wow again, Sir. However You are wrong when you say on your website that the more bends the higher the status though. So maybe your book might be too complete, hehehe, just joking . When a keris has more than 13 bends it is called keris kalawijan. Your comlete description of keris must have kalawijan explained so I will not elaborate here.
As for a Pusaka I understand this fully as I honor those blades and study the various Pamor, dapur and the tangu of the blade. A Pusaka can be a lot of things not just a keris .
Very true, Sir, but when you study the keris you study the dhapur, pamor and the tangguh. There is no such thing as a tangu in kerisology. Tengu are rather common in Solo, it is a bug that bites in the genital area.
As an example in Solo a big secret is many of the warriors changed the Gnaja of the keris before going into battle and the orriginal Ganja was keptat the kraton for two reasons. ONE if the warrior WHILE FIGHTING WITH THE KERIS had the Ganja noticed by the opponent it was believed the other person may have a mantra that could cancel the effects of the keris ,this could be done if he could see the pamor on the ganja and by other means.2. If the warrior was killed and his body lost but the keris found it would be matched the the real ganja of the blade and then the missing warrior identified.
It does seem you listened to people but didn't fully understand, Sir. The plain ganja, called ganja wuwung, was used to hide the pamor of the keris while in the wrangka. If you take the blade out of the wrangka the pamor is obvious already as the pamor is mostly on the blade. The ganja wuwung was to hide the pamor, because a Jawanese would feel naked if his blade was displayed. Never was this a big secret at all. The second reason is just your imagination just like the 'big secret'.
You see, keris owning was and is a private matter. For instance in Jawa if people were to discuss your photo brandishing your Nagaraja Luk 9 kinatah, people would say, wah, this man is wealthy because he has 24 carrat gold kinatah emas, and he wants to have power and charisma and to be feared by his followers, because that is what the Nagaraja Luk 9 is all about. In Jawa showing this type of selfish aspiration / ambition would be embarrassing and shamefull.
By the Way the Balinese empus first came right to Bali from the crumbling Majaphait empire andn so their craft remained more to the old ways , like it or not that is a fact . Today in java there is maybe one emou still making blade s the old ways and one on Bali .
You need to study the lineage of the Mpu more I suggest, Sir. The descendants of Mpu Supa Mandragi stayed in Jawa and followed Sunan Kalidjaga, worked in Demak, in Pajang, and in Mataram. The early Mataram until Sultan Agung's time was a golden age for keris. This is the fact. The Bali Mpu changed the shape of their blades after the fall of Majapahit. The Majapahit blade in Jawa and Bali are the same but after Majapahit they sort of split.
By the Way small kudis were used only for magick and crop purposes larger ones have a standing history of combat, again a Leader in cimande village Pendekar Mama openly shows Kujang Jurus, please tell him he is wrong . Pendekar Jafri also taught them as they were also taught by the Late Pendekar Herman Suwanda and now his sister from Pedepokan Suwanda in Java, tell them also. Pendekar Sanders
I would think that the Suwanda family teach the kujang to make it exciting for foreigners. I will be going to Cimande village when I go to Indonesia not to tell people they are wrong but to ask Why? When? Who? What? Where? and How?
Lastly, Pendekar, Sir, as you seem to be expert on everything sorrounding silat, keris, and Cimande, please explain why there is an incomplete Arabic sentence on your formal certificate signed by the respected Hajis of Lemah Duhur, Cimande.
Wal billahi Taifiuq qal Hidayyah
Wa'alaikum salaam Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh.
(the name of my keris)
Dear Kiai (or who ever you are, since this is not your name)
As I said before you have one view on this and my teacher has another view. You are entitled to your view and I have respect for that, but at the end of the day I've have train personally and directly with Mr Sanders and I have to say, in my total opinion he is one of the most geninue teachers I have ever had the honour to meet. He has very little ego, and has yet to charge me for any of his knowledge, which is alot more than what can be said by others. I agreed with abudullah its a pity silat clubs cant get on, but we never asked to get pull into this flame, it was only because we didnt play ball with Kiai (nameless one) and since then we have constantly been sniped at by him. I have asked him not to get us involve any more in this thread, and have asked Kiai on a number of occassion to speak directly with Pendekar, or come along and train and spar with us to which he has alwayes refused (sayings things like we need to prove we worthy--another thread) and instead has tried to hit back because someone else has voice a different opinion than he has. I understand you from Indonesian and you feel because of this, you feel you need to be right in all matters that deal with silat. If this was the case how come Silat is only really surviving in the world through the hard work of us ignorant stupid westerners?. I have taught many Malay, Indonesian and Fililipinos in my classes and many of them (and even some from java) said this was the frist time when living in Ireland that they train in Authentic Silat. Having never been to Indonesia I cant tell if they telling the truth, but my knowledge comes from a great line of good teachers and fighters and whom now I feel very lucky to be taught by Pendekar Sanders. I'm not going to take the word of someone who is nameless(no disrespect) sitting looking into a computer screen who I dont know, who I totally believe has a hidden agenda (self promotion) over my teacher. I didnt join silat to learn to speak Indonesian, nor argue over a letter "H" in certain dialects of village words. Instead I learn silat as an combat art form. (No wonders MMA and UFC guys laugh at silat as they feel most of them vant fight the way out of a paper bag, and to my disappointment they are correct, most silat I see now been taughtis totally devoid of any real combat applications, or hidden beneath endless layers of customs and regulations with the end product very few silat players can really fight or use it to protect themselves). Yes the dance is important, but that wont save you in the middle of a fight, which to us in Pukulan Cimande Pusaka is the first level of training.
If you feel we wrong Kiai than open you own club and teach, dont sit there on your computer sniping. You are a very knowledgable person, but its really coming accross like you been appointed as a judge and the all almighty because if any one offers anything different you attack. As I said before please dont bring us in on your hidden agendas. I am not alwayes 100% right and I made mistakes, my teacher is a human being too and is not alwayes 100%right but when I see his heart and soul I see a geniune warrior teacher, who has never stood in my way to teach me wheither its Cimande, Sera, Trumbu etc......he is guity of being to giving, never have I been with a teacher who gives so much, who I along many many students accross USA and Europe trust and it really sadden me that you have constantly tried to belittle him over a internet forum, when to afraid to meet him or me or any of us low western teachers on a battlefield or even a workshop.
Our way is only one of many, we have an open door to all who want to come along, if you like what you see than you welcome to stay. If you dont like it, you are free to leave and try something else. We not here to rule the forum nor say we are the only view, but we do offer something different, something which cant be experience in this forum, so come along to one of our classes and have a go There are many other great teachers out there and experience then all and than you can make a decision, the same way I did.
This is my final response on this aspect and feel free to say what ever you want Kiai, if you not prepared to talk directly, and only want to self promote,than we have nothing more to say to each other. I will not fuel your plans any more .I wish you the very best with your projects and your dance. I would be most grateful if you would please not bring us in to any more of your threads and we would asked the moderator to look into this. If we feel we have something to add we will do so and than will answer any questions that warrant an answer.
I like to thank all the people who email me privately with emails of support and I will pass then all on to Pendekar Sanders. If anyone needs to contact me or Pendekar sanders they are more than welcome to e mail me or him privately, he or she will be contacted back by telephone.
Liam Mc Donald
(Not afraid to stand up and use my real name)
Separate names with a comma.