First Kembangan Practise in Camden

Discussion in 'Silat' started by Kiai Carita, Jul 10, 2005.

  1. Kiai Carita

    Kiai Carita Banned Banned

    Thanks for asking Britsil, Sunday went as thus: at around five PM I texted Cimandesil and found that he had been called in to work, but would try to make it. I realized I did not have Sabr's phone number, but as he had told me he would not be able to come I was not expecting him. I did, though, want to know whether he had found anyone else to replace him. By the time the stalls in the Stables market began to close, I relaized that I might be doing this kembangan thing alone.

    Seeing no one was coming my gamelan friends were reluctant to lugg the instruments upstairs to the parking space near the toilets where we praticed the last week. Instead we set up the gamelan in on the cobblestones in front of the shop we work in. My boss' little baby girl was toddling around very excitedly.

    I went upstairs to wrap my destar around my head to keep my hair clean when I roll on the ground and prance about, and saw all the security guards of the market getting a group of young kids out. Some of the kids asked me if I was going to do my dance and I said yes, but downstairs. All of them had to leave the market because they had been having a foodfight and were jumping on to the roof. They were the group that had fallen in love with Cimandesil on the first Sunday.

    As I was the only pesilat there I began to do my dance and continued untill it was past 10 PM. Then two Spanish girls, students of theatre and dance in Madrid asked if they could join. I said of course, remembering when my guru used to explain that in Jawa arts there is the undercurrent of the soul that flows through the art, and this undercurrent, called greget in Jawanese, is the same as el duende in Spanish art. My teacher loves the poetry and the plays of Lorca.

    All of the gamelan players had bought food and drinks so we ended the session after dark with food shared all around.

    Some of you might be wondring why I did not write a report of the Sunday meeting immediately. The reason was that during the build up towards the Sunday I, in my efforts to get more pesilat in to the kembangan do, I discovered some problems regarding the 'politics' of silat in London. The President of the UK SIlat Federation told me that some schools, because of organizational rules and regulations, cannot take part in silat events that also accomodates schools which are unrecognized by the Indonesian silat organization or the British Silat Federation.

    I explained that to avoid problems of this kind I am not inviting any schools. I am inviting individuals, as in my observation, silat had developed in the West and in the UK, not only through the works of recognised schools like Perisai Diri, Merpati Putih, or PGB, but also through the work and efforts of silat players like Steve Benitez.

    Dealing with these politics sort of took the wind out of my sails and I haven't had the nerve to contact the Phillies, Singies, or the Malaysians... sort of scared that they might be all formal too. Maybe if this Sunday more pesilat come I will have a bigger heart.

    I hope that many pesilat can get together for this do and individuals can talk to smooth out the politics of the more rigid organisations, and also to fine tune the cultural and linguistic 'mistakes' that bother Indonesian pesilat when reading / listening to Western pesilat explaining wierd terms and funny names for Indonesian or Jawa or Sunda names which are slightly different.

    Thats all for now,

    Hormat,
    Kiai Carita.
     
  2. zenbaseballbat

    zenbaseballbat New Member

    Quote>The President of the UK SIlat Federation told me that some schools, because of organizational rules and regulations, cannot take part in silat events that also accomodates schools which are unrecognized by the Indonesian silat organization or the British Silat Federation. <

    were they saying IPSI didnt recognise Wali Songo Pencak Silat by chance?
     
  3. Kiai Carita

    Kiai Carita Banned Banned

    I was told that several of the big silat names in the West are not recognised by IPSI. I will not mention these names in this public forum so as not to offend people about something of a formality. I do not want to make the situation worse with people getting cross and feeling hurt. After all, silat is silat whether it is recognised or not.

    Titles such as Pendekar, Guru, and so on, which in Indonesia are normally awarded by the society, in the West are used much easier, but with much more formality. Often it appears to be the individual him/herself who uses the title. A very un-Indonesian trait. In Jawa if you claim to be a guru you will have people coming to test you and mock you for your arrogance.

    I got the impression that IPSI was also upset by some people's claims to have mastered Cimande silat after having studied it for 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 years, while in Sunda the mastering of Cimande is considered to be a lifetime pursuit. Someone claiming to have mastered Cimande after studying for 2 years is considered to be belittling the Cimande art.

    Hormat,
    Kiai Carita
     
  4. cimandesilat

    cimandesilat New Member

    Hi Kiai Carita,

    Apolagies once again for missing sunday, but when work calls not much can be done!

    I am heading back to ireland for the weekend but have checked what time my flight comes back at and I reckon I should still be able to make the session this sunday.

    Also, nobody here has claimed to master the art of cimande. In fact, the reason I fell in love with this art is for the exact reason that there is a lifetimes worth of knowledge to be learned, both in physical and spiritual terms. I am a teacher who is simply passing on the knowledge which I have been lucky enough to have been thought. I am starting people on their journey, which I have already begun but still have a very long way to go!

    On people using titles in the western world, Pendekar William Sanders has been training for over 30 years in the art of pencak silat with numerous indonesian pendekars and is officially recognised by numerous indonesian governing bodies. Have a look on www.cimande.com there is plenty of information about his credentials.

    I am really disappointed that this view is taken about people who simply love learning silat and more importantly are willing to pass on their knowledge of the art to other people.
     
  5. britsilatinmt

    britsilatinmt New Member

    Mmm... one of the problems with silat is the politics! IPSI is an organisation covering indonesian silat, and persilat covers the governing bodies of countries,you can do silat and not be in ipsi.

    Certainly if you want to take part in competition you need to be in ipsi, or the organisations from the other founding countries. I have never heard of them forbidding students who arent in ipsi to do kembangan with those who are, but im only affiliated through my teachers.

    I had the pleasure of staying at ipsi for a few weeks, and enjoyed my stay very much, they were very hospitable.

    Seems a shame though that people are missing out on what could be a nice experience.
     
  6. Kiai Carita

    Kiai Carita Banned Banned

    Hi Cimande, and Britsil...it is a shame that politics get in the way of natural dissemination of knowledge. I have looked at the cimande.com website and there are things in it that at the worst could make Indonesians upset and at the least make us feel uneasy. The fact that the domian name www.cimande.com is owned by you guys might make some people laugh.

    Some things in the website just do not make sense, like Pendekar Sanders being taught the keris and the kujang by a Batak pendekar in Banten, while the tradition in Jawa is that neither the keris or the kujang are used as weapons in the physical sense. ... The 'high caste Cimande taught in the Keraton' sounds imprecise, which keraton? Sunda people are also Muslims since the 14-16th century and have no caste system. ... The wordings on the certificates are not translations of Indonesian or Sundanese documents and I would bet that none of the elders in the village there understood English.

    The use of the word Pendekar, Guru, Guru Besar and so on in the website, also, culturally comes across as arrogant and confused. Who is higher, the Pendekar or the Guru or the Guru Besar? Normally a a guru is a retired pendekar. The use of these titles is, of course, sensitive. Especially in the modern world of copyright and globalization.

    Just for the record, there is no Guru Besar of Cimande and there never has been as Cimande grew organically in the community rather than in schools. There are many aliran, styles of Cimande and some have schools, and some schools, only some, might have a Guru Besar. In Indonesia it is a very heavy tittle to bear. Even the old Tarik Kolot man, Pendekar Mama, does not claim to be Guru Besar, Big Teacher, Teacher of Teachers and not only in a physical sense. Usually there can be only one Guru Besar in a school, for example, Mr. Sanders should be the Guru Besar of your school and all under him should be Pendekar or Pelatih. Obviousely Mr. Sanders is more an a pendekar than an anthropologist.

    For me these wierd cultural misplacements of concepts is all less important than the love of silat and the openness to learn and share with the wider world. I do hope some people from IPSI schools can also come to the Sunday kembangan practise. Again, let us not come as representatives of schools but just as individuals who love silat. The knowledge of silat has flowed to every corner of the world and it should be something that we celebrate.

    However, I do feel that Indonesia's intangible cultural heritage, in this case pencak silat, should be defined by Indonesian people who live the Indonesian culture and not used and redefined at whim by people who come as guests.

    I have seen also on the silat world of the web, the title Ustadz being used by someone who has never been known to be Muslim! Some might find the use blasphemous or at least misleading as one would expect to learn to read the Holy Qur'an from an Ustadz, even if he could also teach you some silat!

    Hormat,
    Kiai Carita.
     
  7. silatliam

    silatliam Valued Member

    re

    Hi Kiai

    When you first started this thread you were looking for Silat players to come down to your event and train together. One of my students "Cimandesilat" went out of his way to travel into London, taking time out from his busy work schedule to support you in this venture. Despite the fact the most Silat schools and clubs didnt support you, while our school did you decided to by using this forum and thread to launch a bigot attack on our Teacher Pendekar Sanders and our style. You could have very easily have contacted me or Pendekar Sanders but instead try to slur his name on this thread. Pendekar Sanders sent me this reply last night and asked me to post it on this forum. This will be his only public reply to this thread and if you have any furthur remarks you are more than welcome to talk to him or me personally.
    ...............................................................................................

    Thank you for your comments on my web site. For the record “Pukulan Cimande Pusaka Global” is my Organization and as such I am the head of it. My history in Cimande is well documented along the way .Various Indonesian Organizations and Teachers, Pendekars as well as the elders of Cimande village have given there approval. I have all of the documents in Indonesian for your information and put the translated versions on my site as the majority of students here and in Europe don’t read Indonesian. Saying the Cimande Elders did not understand English was a pretty low blow, not in Good Hormat . Rest assured if you go to Pendekar Mama's house my picture and my students pictures are there. The rank we use is traditonal in some schools but it does not matter as they are my ranks for my students and are explained so all can understand.. We have Students , new Guru,s , Guru's and then Gura Besar, and finnaly the head of the system Pendekar. I have studied this art non stop for over thirty years and my expresion of it Pukulan Cimande Pusaka is mine, putting together all of the Great Cimande teachers I have studied as well as adding my incite that has developed over this time with and arriving at this art which all who have seen in Indonesia are most impressed with .However This is the seat of my art and those who wish to learn it can not learn it in Indonesia or anywhere else but from me and my students. I believe time will say that my students and I have added to the great history of this art.
    Sorry but the Kujang is practiced for combat as Pendekar Mama in Cimande village would be happy to show you Kujang Jurus ,which are also taught in Girang village. The old ways of fighting with a Keris are all but unknown and I was lucky enough to have some teachers who still understood the old Kejawen ways. Sorry if you have not had this learning it is very interesting. I hope in the future it will be possible for my students to participate in demonstrations etc where they will be judged on how well they move and fight and not on the rank we use in my art, .I also hope they are not the victim of Bigotry and Prejudice based on the fact we are not Indonesians. . Thank you. Pendekar Sanders.

    .............................................................................................
    In Dublin in May in front of an audience of Indonesian people and the Indonesian Ambassador and dignitaries we were ask to put on a demostration of Cimande as part of a Indonesian Culture show to raise money for the Tsunami.
    At the end of our demo our students recieve a 5 minute standing ovation by the Indonesian people, such was their delight a number of senior Indonesian came out to the changing room to shake hands with the students and some were crying with joy. Even when the students enter the room after the break people stood up and clap them in respect for what they show. We were told by many of them that Traditional Silat was dead in their villages and towns and was no longer practise. We were also told by some of the elders at the event that it was one of the best displays of Cimande they had seen in over 30 Years.

    At this moment in time we have 9 Cimande schools in Ireland and UK totaling about 280 adult students with 5 more clubs plan to open later this year. Next Year we have furthur 8 plan to open and 6 in 2007. This will mean by end of 2007 we hopefully will have 28 clubs in Uk and ireland making us the biggest Independent Association for the teaching of Silat. This just proves how successful and functional the cimande Pendekar Sanders teaches.
    You stated about the website www.cimande.com being own by us. This domain name was available to rent when Pendekar Sanders wanted it, there was no under hand dealings. If people in Indonesia are unhappy with this, then they should have rented the domain name, there are plenty more they could use.

    If you any furthur question please feel free to contact me, my details are on my website www.silateurope.com Due to what you have done I have instructed "Cimandesilat" along with any other member of our Association not to get involved with your events in the future under the present circumstances. Liam Mc Donald www.silateurope.com
     
  8. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    Not to put too fine a point on it, but "IPSI" and "Silat" are sets which overlap. Silat is a group of martial arts traditions. IPSI is a nationalistic organization designed to regulate the traditions and bring them in line with post Independence social ideology and modify them to certain worthy goals. If you agree with the aims and think the innovations are worth the time and trouble, that's great. If you don't there really isn't any point in joining.

    Non-Indonesians aren't even allowed in IPSI, as far as that goes. There is a separate group, Persilat, which handles international affairs. The last time I tried contacting Persilat I waited six months and never got a reply.

    Silat was around before the organization. It will be around when IPSI has gone the way of PPSI. Even today there are plenty of excellent aliran in Indonesia who aren't interested in IPSI and just do their own thing the way they always have. It doesn't make them any better or worse, just different.

    My own teacher is a very good pesilat and an excellent guru. His teacher is the same but more so. Neither has any interest in IPSI-sponsored competitions or the standardized djuru-djuru and government mandated formalized bela diri. Not that there's anything wrong with those curricula; they just aren't relevant to the pedagogy and aims of these gentlemen.

    Status inflation is always a problem. People like titles and place more stock in them than in actual ability. I call my teacher "Guru" because he is a guru; he teaches me. If my drumming teacher or blacksmithing master were Indonesian I'd call them "Guru" as well out of common courtesy. Our students don't call us guru because we're not completed instructors in the system and because we don't have the same cultural background that makes the title appropriate. "Tiel" or "Todd" are fine as long as they listen and do what we tell them to in class.

    Several mainstay IPSI aliran use the term "Pendekar" as a rank roughly equivalent to "mid-level blackbelt" in Kendo or Judo. There's nothing wrong with this per se. A word is just a word. But it shows that the same semantic drift is taking place in Indonesia under official auspices.

    As for mastering Cimande in six years, I can't imagine someone doing it with no Silat background. But an experienced Guru who and completed at least one other system and had a good understanding of Silat principles and fighting could probably pick up a second or third style pretty quickly. It would take decades of hard work (if ever) before I could do what Glen Velez does with drums. Caton Lyles (my African and Cuban drumming instructor) could probably get it down in a year or two. He's already a classically trained pro in something closely related.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2005
  9. Silatyogi

    Silatyogi Valued Member


    Glen Velez Rules!

    Todd have you heard

    Sean Reinert? (Full Kit Drummer)

    As Guru Plinck to show you the Aghora album.

    Take care

    Santi
     
  10. Sgt_Major

    Sgt_Major Ex Global Mod Supporter

    Why would they laugh? I dont see why it would bother them, but if it did, surely they wouldnt be laughing??

    As stated, the originals are available, you had only to ask and Im sure copies would have been made available for your viewing. At most you have been studying Silat for 21 years .... yet you assume to know more than a fully recognised Cimande Pendekar? To me THAT is more presumptious, arrogant and showing of ignorance.

    I think Pendekar Snaders addresses this best in his own personal reply. I can say no more than he has already deigned to answer.

    you contradict yourself within your first sentence, and then expect us to take your word on an issue that involves your publicly attacking our Pendekar. I had my reservations about your intentions in the first instance, but wrongly gave you the benefit of the doubt, believing, somewhat naievly that as a silat brother, your intentions would be honourable.....

    Celebrate? you say celebrate, but at same time your true colours are showing to all, you seem to me to be under the impression only native indonesians can teach/learn 'proper' silat, those of us in the Western Silat community are only 'playing at learning' a watered down attempt at silat. I find that VERY insulting and offensive

    Again, your not celebrating the universal silat, but saying only muslims can learn/use muslim titles/styles?

    As silatliam has reccomended, I will not be in attendance at any of your organised meetings/practices/demos, as I feel you would only use it as a further excuse to slander my style, my leaders, my instructors, and myself. With the significance of importance in that order. Slander me, I dont care.... Slander my style is another matter.

    SilatPupil
     
  11. Kiai Carita

    Kiai Carita Banned Banned

     
  12. Monyet Nakal

    Monyet Nakal Valued Member

    I don't mean to be sticking my nose in where it doesn't belong, and I am certainly not trying to pick sides (if there even are any sides to pick) but I have to say as an uninvolved bystander, I didn't get the feeling that Kiai Carita was trying to attack the Cimande Pusaka art, teachers or practioners in his post. I got the sense he was merely trying to point out cultural differences and attempting to educate by offering his informed perspective, albeit in a way much more direct than most are accustomed to hearing it. Having said that, I also freely admit that if it was my system he was mentioning by name I might have had an entirely different perception and taken a different attitude when I read it.

    I hope that this can be resolved as a simple miscommunication if, in fact, that is what it was. Pentjak Silat as an art already seems to have a bad reputation among other martial artists, in the west at least, as being prone to a lot of politics, rivalries, and in-fighting. It is my hope that in the near future we as a community can work together to change that perception and promote our arts in a much more positive light.

    I find some of Kiai Carita's posts to be very informative and his views to be educational but I also take them at face value, for instance I am sure that he is right and that in parts of Indonesia there are not currently openly taught systems utilizing the keris and kujang as combat weapons and they are viewed as cultural talismans, however I'm sure even he would admit that they only became talismans because they, at some point in history, were once widely used as weapons.

    Again this is only my opinion and I only offer it in the hope of settling this misunderstanding peaceably.

    Hormat to you all.
     
  13. Kiai Carita

    Kiai Carita Banned Banned

    Dear Mr McDonald, I am very sorry that you feel angry over my posts and following the council of you anger, you have instructed Cimandesilat and all your members not to get involved in any events I organize in the future. It appears that you feel I have done you a great injury. Please accept my apologies for this and do not sulk. I can assure you that there are no hidden motives from my part.

    I thought your student Cimandesilat was very talented. I was hoping to see him again, just as an individual pesilat, not as a representative of a school. I hope you can come as well, Mr Mc Donald, as I think we are actually not so far distant cousins at least since the time of the massacre of Glencoe.

    Silatpupil, please take it easy and stay cool. The silat way to solve a 'conflict' is to engage, not to stamp your foot and say 'we will not have anything to do with you' . We can have a dialogue, talk nicely. Will you accept that I am not attacking you? I will always be grateful if you or anyone else in this world point out a mistake I am or have been making. Amal ma'ruf nahi munkar, as my Ustadz would say.

    Lastly I would like to quote a Malay silat proverb which just might be appropriate for us to consider here. I will not translate it as obviousely there are experts who can explain Malay and Indonesian here:

    Air beriak tanda tak dalam.

    Aku Cinta Padamu.
    Kiai Carita.
     
  14. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    Good Lord, guys. This is beginning to sound as bad as the squabbling in American Silat circles. "I don't like him, so if you want to play with me you can't play with him," crossed with "Your sort can't possibly understand," and (imagine my lips moving out of synch like a badly dubbed Shaw Brothers Kung Fu Theater flick) "Your Kung Fu is no good! You dishonor my master with your foolishness!"

    We're supposed to be grownups here. We can disagree and still go out for a beer like civilized men afterwards.

    I don't think that KC is the font of all wisdom. But if I were in the UK I'd be first in line when the doors opened for his Kembangan practice. That sort of thing is an opportunity not to be missed.

    The whole domain name thing is just silly. A group that practices one style of the Cimande system uses the domain name. Great. Be thankful they're Cimande players. Remember what happened when the late Gurus Ter Linden and Herman Suwanda died? ratuadil.com got snapped up by a sleazy huckster. mandemuda.com spent two years pointing at a Mexican porn site of the "chicas y burros!" variety.

    I'll be glad to start a betting pool for "First Internet Death Threat" in this forum. The winner gets to throw the first pie in the face of the person making the threat and hit him on the head with the ceremonial rubber chicken. :D
     
  15. zenbaseballbat

    zenbaseballbat New Member

    Good point Tellner...

    It seems a shame if the cimande guys wont take part
    anymore, in what could be a nice experience for silat
    players and also an opportunity for people to see the art.

    I cant get anyone to play kembangan with me where ive
    moved to, although i do have wrestlers to train with :)

    I hope it all works out
     
  16. Silatyogi

    Silatyogi Valued Member

    Anyone want to have a kembangan in Florida?
     
  17. britsilatinmt

    britsilatinmt New Member

    If I make it down to miami sometime i will... im working in montana at the moment, so its a bit far, but if i head down there, I'll send you a mail.

    best wishes
     
  18. Silatyogi

    Silatyogi Valued Member

    Sounds good!
     
  19. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    I'd love to, but Oregon is a long expensive plane ride away.
     
  20. Silatyogi

    Silatyogi Valued Member


    I hope/and planning to come visit you guys and Guru Plinck in Oregon sometime in 2006 to train.

    Take care

    Santiago
     

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