Filipine arts: separating the reality from the hype

Having studied kali and escrima, I have a hard time separating the hype from the reality. Specifically, I am talking about:

a. "Deadly moves" - I have studied with kali teachers who claim that they teach "killing moves". Yet, they of course can't demonstrate that it works (thank God !!). [Truth is: the real knife fighters are all in federal prison - doing '20 to life', or dead].

b. "Teachers fighting each other to the death" - People always claim that teachers in the Filipines are always challenging each other to death matches. Again, this cannot be substantiated.

c. "Kali/escrima is the best" - and yet, at at least one knife sparring tournament, a western fencer (a teacher who did that as a hobby) beat all the kali guys. [Bruce Lee felt that the simple, direct way is the best way; kali seems to feel that the most complex, most round-about way is the best]. Also, is kali knife fighting really all that better than say, knife fighting that kids just make up, say, in Colombia, South Africa, or Moscow ? In other words, is organized kali so much better than what gangs of teenagers just teach each other, say, in the Third World ? And how could that be demonstrated ?

d. "You need 10 years or more to get at all good" - Funny how you end up paying dues for 10+ years after they say that. And yet, after 4 months of kali, I can more or less spar the teacher. ;-)

e. "This is a deadly art, but don't hit my knuckle when we train" - a kali teacher in California actually said that to me. So you are supposed to learn this "killer art", but if you make accidental contact with your partner, you stop training !! [can you imagine boxers doing that ?].

Not to start a "flame war", but I would really like to hear from kali/escrima people about this. What do you think ? Please note: I love kali/escrima, and it is fun, but I just personally have a hard time separating out all the hype surrounding this art.

 

I like pizza.

 

a) deadly moves= here's one. i thrust my stick full force to your neck followed by a number one strike on the base of your skull. there's many more combos out there.

b) ahh, the famous 'death matches'. not all the time. but you must understand, escrima/arnis deals with live blade, too. so it could've happened, we just don't know.

c) to say any art is the best is fallacy. as for the fencing vs. kali, what were the rules? what was the level of the 'kali' guys? etc, etc, etc... incidentally, i just choked out three wrestlers this past weekend (i practice bjj). oh, the wrestlers? they were 14 years old know it all thinking they can beat an old man and just started this year.

d) again, let me go back to bjj analogy. i can learn all the moves in six months, but to actually do in a live opponent that fights back, it take years of practice to know timing. ten years sounds about right.

e) i can't speak for that person...

 

First of all Kali still empolyed as a military art, so yes, there are folks actively utilizing the killing aspect of the system. See US Marine Force Recon for one example. Also, some people are crazier than others. I do know of kali people who have tested things out on animals (let's not get into the ethics of this). And that's leaving out the possibility of human testing. And once something is proven, unless the conditions change, does it really need to be retested by every instructor?

Actually, at least in cases of older instructors, it can be pretty well substaniated. See the historical work Mark Wiley has been doing. I'll leave it to our friends in the Phillipines to talk about more modern cases.

Stop right there. Anyone who suggests this, about any art, is already wrong. I haven't had a Kali instructor yet who has said such an ignorant statement.

Sounds like you need to find a better teacher. Cause the folks that I work with, and those I know others on the site work with, will be happy to show a things or two.

Sounds like you need to find another teacher. However, out of respect we tend to avoid each others knuckles during routine training. It's that crazy idea of we like to be in one peice to continue training. Once we spar, then all bets are off.

- Matt

 

well said matt

 

How trained do you have to be to be deadly with a blade? My experience of FMA is that it is fundamentally a simple system that like anything worthwhile is ridiculously difficult to master. Also like any other branch of MA people tend to use myths, legends and stories to substantiate abilities they don’t have. Anyway, surely the only opinion as to whether or not you think your training is valid – is yours?

Paul

 

L M A O at this thread --- SOOOO many truths - from all sides :Angel:

 

I think that's true of any style(s) though. It's got nothing to do with being Filipino and everything to do with being in the public eye (which is relatively new for FMA at least here in the states).

Have you ever seen a style that didn't claim that?! Besides, you don't have to look back very far historically to see examples of FMA's "killing moves" actually killing people. Take the stories of Guro Leo Giron for example.

I agree with you that "death match" is a bit of hyperbole. Death is possible. But it's not "to the death."

As has been stated already, that's always a problematic statement. An art exists only as expressed by its practitioners. If they weren't the best, it's not the best. It's as simple as that. And clearly, in that competition, they weren't the best. (Besides, fencers train "live" all the time. They do little but spar. It's a good training model really.)

Do you get the impression that you're better than your teacher? No problem if the answer's "yes." But you might consider moving on in that case.

Depends on the hit. I've been hit in the hand and shaken it off. But it's not difficult to imagine some very real damage being done. In which case, you have to stop training and perhaps make a trip to the hospital to get your hand x-rayed. Accidents happen. But it doesn't seem particularly out of line to ask not to get your knuckles smashed.

Every art has hype. Every practitioner has to separate that from the reality. No big deal.


Stuart

 

Thanks

Thanks guys. I just wanted to hear your input on that. It is cool that you guys stay rational and objective even when someone "attacks" your art (which really wasn't my objective, I just wanted to have a challenging discussion to learn more). I think it shows that you guys are mature in your art that you don't take offense to what I wrote.

 

I like pizza, too!

 

(from an interview with GM Largusa)
Were death matches truly to the death?
Let me clarify a misconception about death matches. I remember a top escrima instructor telling me that Felicisimo Dizon never competed in real death matches, because he lost one but was still alive. Well, it is true that he did compete, did lose, and is still alive. Death matches did not always finish with one man dead. It was up to the winner to decide to kill the opponent or not. Of course, the defeated fighter might be maimed and crippled with broken bones and serious injuries - but if the winner decided to let him live it was well within his rights. Grandmaster Villabrille allowed many of his opponents to live, especially those who showed him respect before the fight. There were some others that were very cocky and disrespectful so Grandmaster Villabrille had no mercy with them. It all depended on the attitude of the opponent. He would mirror their intentions back to them........ Many fighters did not walk over to their fallen opponent and deliver the death blow. Don't forget that the majority of the old escrimadors who fought in these death matches were honorable men, who, if they had the chance to spare the life of their opponent, did so. Not all of Grandmaster Villabrille's death matches ended in death.
Actually a number of "death matches" can be verified because there were public witnesses, or they were publicly sanctioned so there were records. Theres a good article on Krishna Godhania's website. And in some instances, like with GM Ilustrisimo, there are public records of his arests whenever he killed someone(though he was always released afterwards as it was found to be self defense).

Also funny considering many escrimadors had no formal training, or in the case of GM Cabales who trained with Dizon for only 4 years. I guess according to your instructor his training wasn't complete

be right back, have to move some furniture.

 

which styles? you can't generalise from just a style or system and apply it to the whole fma thing.

says who? there are deadly techniques in all arts. over in the islands, if you kill someone, you run to the hills and join the insurgents (if you're poor), if you have the cash, we have the best justice system money can buy.

of course they have killed each other! in my father's province alone he can cite several incidences. guys "playing" and end up maiming each other.

i stand by that statement, fma is the best for me because i can make it work for me. it's all about you. if you can't work it then don't blame the art.

i say good for you! always spar! beat the teacher if you can.

huh? weird! maybe the guy had a knuckle injury. we do have a thing called "sayaw largo mano" which is a drill where you and your oppenent stay out of stick reach and "flash" offense and defense without hitting each other. but that's just a drill.

no hype. just guys training in the beloved blood art. i personally haven't heard of any hype. i just train and spar.

 

jkd_guy,

been to bath, maine lately?

 

a) Not sure what your point is, but just use your common sense and you will know which techniques could possibly be fatal.

b) There are always challenges floating around in FMA circles in the P.I. that no one ever hears about, but no one is really out to kill anyone. Who really knows if true "Death Matches" ever really occurred at all, but does anyone really care?

c) There is no such thing as an invincible MA, but If you don't believe that it is superior to fencing then perhaps you should quit Kali and study western fencing.

Just FYI, GM Lema (Lightning Scientific Arnis) was challenged by a Western fencing "Master" and GM Lema dispatched him very easily.

d) My teacher has a decade + more experience than I do, and I can't touch him when it comes to sparring. Perhaps you should find a better instructor.

e) You should always practice with control when training. But when it comes to sparring all bets are off.

 

I will try my best, so here goes.

I beg to differ, I know a few who are doing very well on the outside.

These fights are called "Death Matches" that does not mean they all end in death, it just means that there is a high risk of death occuring to one or both parties, it does happen, not as often as it used to and many of the old Masters have the battle scares to prove it to, but it does still happen on occasion, especially when two people fall out.

Again as Shootdog stated, it is the best, the best for me, as for the fencer beating the others in the tournament, you have to first look at the rules and secondly look at the sparring expeariance of the competitors, rules make restrictions, restriction can either be an advantage or disadvatage. I have beat a few fencers and a few fencers have beat me, in a tournament it is a bit about skill, but more so it's luck on the day that counts.

If you can more or less spar the teacher then he/she is doing there job right, the job of a teacher is to make you better than they are or we end up like other styles I shant mention, it becomes watered down with every generation. And if you can more or less spar the teacher that tells me you cant yet beat him/her, and have you ever thought they may be holding back in order to help you progress and if they are not, get another teacher.
On another note, I assume from your user name you are practicing JKD / Kali (especially the way you spell Eskrima, this tend to give something away), no offence to the JKD / Kali guys, but the ones I have come across I have noticed that the majority of them tend to only practice a small portion of the FMA and do not go into it in real depth, for if they did they would find that there is a lot more to it than just, stick, knife and sword play, So maybe you need to find yourself an FMA teacher who teaches FMA the way it is taught in the Philippines, as a whole system and not as a bolt on to compliment another art.

Trust me, if I asked you not to hit my knuckels, I have a reason for it, I have to get up for work in the morning and my hands are my work, if you still proceed to hit me on the knuckles you would soon find out just how much damage can be done by hitting the hands with one shot, pain can be a great teacher, Your instructor has a reason for saying this I am sure.
But then again if I am sparring, I would expect you to hit me on the hand, as I am dam sure I would certainly do it to you

As I said before, look for someone who has train the art as a whole, not a part and I am sure you will not be disappointed.

Best regards

Pat

 

pat said it right, if you want to find out about the real philippine martial arts, find a full time teacher of the art. the problem is when people go to the FMA seminar, the come away from there thinking, this is the best the philippines have to offer. what you see in those seminars is NOT filipino FMA.

 

check out this website. there are some pics of bloody stick fighting, whether its a death match or not, you decide!
http://www.pekiti-tirsia.net/200406_Noheadgear.php?lang=en&soundsParam=&file=200406_Noheadgear

 

Case proven as the Jury said

 

Out of interest - any idea which fencing master it was?

W