Filial Responsibility? or Giving back?

Hi,

Whoa...isn't that like a ripoff? 2k a month (though, I've heard of a certain teacher who charges this much...)? I remember Kendo being just 500 a month (400 even...)...but yeah, the seminars are expensive (or free... ).

If they feel that their services can be valued at 2k a month and they can find students to pay it and continue to pay it, then no its no ripoff. The student obviously feels that they're getting value for money paid, so why begrudge the teacher for getting a fair rate. Ripoffs exist when there is deception, either in what is or isn't taught, or about the teacher's credentials. Otherwise, if its all out in the open then good for them. My problem is that, more often than not the 2000+ pesos/month teachers tend not to be in fma but some foreign art. Why do we have to undervalue our art just because it isn't imported.

As to why (practice arts other than FMAs)? Everyone has their own reason (wasn't this discussed in another thread, even the points and my counterpoints on the whole 'its seen by so-and-so as the poor's MA'?). Mine being that I got into Arnis realtively late (having been introduced to other philosophies first). Not that I don't appreciate Arnis, which I still practice, but that I tend to practice what appeals to me: As I promote and practice Japanese and Chinese internal arts, so do I promote arnis. If I didn't find arnis appealing, then would I bother with it? NO. Same goes for any martial art that I've encountered.

Anyone can practice any art they want. The problem a lot of us have in the fma community is the short shrift our art is given in the country of its origin. Something that is almost never done overseas. (Well, except by ex-pat Filipinos) Like you, I came from another art before the went into fma. In many ways I'm probably more skilled and better respected in taiji, bagua and hsing I than I am in fma. The only students that I'll teach any of those arts to today are the only who continue to study fma with me. Why? Because the neijia are already promoted by a couple of national governments, various civic and cultural organizations and new-age groups all over the world. The FMA should have such support. But as a born-again Filipino (born Pasay City, raised overseas, returned to my homeland), I feel it is my responsibility to give back to the culture I'm trying to become part of again. F. Sionil Jose, my favourite author, said that Filipinos don't really appreciate what it is to be Filipino until they've lived overseas. I'm sure that this doesn't apply to every Filipino here. But I have lived overseas and I've seen how fma can instill pride in Fil-foreign youth, give them a sense of identity and a want to learn about their culture, history and heritage.

And I don't really know about the push of FMAs as 'sariling atin' ('our own' or 'something from our culture') to filipinos, MAers or not, should even be a focus. I think, and forgive my ignorance if this has been pointed out before, that FMAs should be promoted according to their own merits. Period. Just as with any martial art. Instead of saying that Arnis/Escrima/Kali is 'sariling atin', lay down, instead, its claims of being a practical MA. If Kendo has its claims of self-cultivation, Hsing-I its focused intent, Tai Chi its health benefits, then why not insist/say/proclaim to filipinos that arnis/escrima/kali is very practical.

Telling Filipinos that arnis/escrima/kali is very practical is an exercise in tautological futility. They know its practical, its so obvious. A stick hurts when someone is hitting you with it. But then they shrug their shoulders and ask if I would teach them bagua. FMA can be just as health giving as taiji or bagua, just as focused in hsing I and just as self-cultivating as any Japanese sword art. And more practical in combat than all of the above put together. So what? Why do the Japanese prefer kendo? or the Chinese wushu? Because it is their own?. Why won't many Filipinos do fma? because it is "their own." The exercise of selling fma to the Filipinos isn't about marketing as much as it is consciousness raising. What is it about "our own" that we don't like and why don't we like? Emphasizing again and again that fma is "ours" to our people, is just us pushing back against all of the negative imagery and stereotyping we see against the fma and indeed saying, in a land so accustomed to colonial mentality that it isn't even noticed anymore, that being Filipino is a good thing.

My point of view: I don't care if *insert name of popular figure* practiced that martial art or if it won *insert competition* or if it came from *insert culture or country*, if I don't find any merits or personal appeal in it, then why will I study it? (yes...a somewhat redundant statement...forgive me, I came from arnis practice...sooo tired :Angel: )

Congratulations. I wish everyone were as open minded. I was interviewed before by a tv show called Extra!Extra! on GMA 7 because they wanted to know about this new martial art they heard about called "kali." They were just so excited about it because it was being shown in the new Bourne Identity movie. I said that it was a name they used in the United States instead of arnis or escrima. Well, the excitement level plummeted. Their thinking *place name of imported martial art here * is good and exciting and lets study it for its merits and personal appeal; * place name of local, indigenous martial art *, is just okay lang, deadma (no reaction)


I just hope its free of some of the ugliness I witnessed some time back when FMA teachers from many styles were brought together in one place (It was a hotel along Roxas...I was there with the editor of a local publication...I remember one comment, in particular, when the topic of arnis being taught in schools was brought up and, I think, the style that should be used became an issue..and the comment was something like: 'let's all go out, and the last man standing's style will be the one' :cry: )

The Grand Boulevard Hotel for the FMA National Congress. Yeah, I was there too. I was embarrassed for him. As usual, it was an older man. (The older I get, the tougher I used to be.) But we're a younger generation. (Some of us not so young, others younger.) And we don't have to do things the same way as our immediate ancestors. Young Filipino fma'ers do cross train styles. In my group, we have members who've trained in Kali deLeon, Lanada, Modern Arnis, Illustrisimo and Northern kali. Not to mention the 3rd dan in aikido, the hwarangdo student and the various other arts we've all done.

 

brother teacher dv, does this mean you'll teach us bagua? northern kali, ilustrisimo, hwarangdo, aikido, lanada...i think you're missing a few more styles here.

back to the topic, i do believe that once something is taught to you, it has become a part of you. it is part of what makes you who you are. i mean i may be a rah- rah boy for fma (kali de leon, dumog, boltong, ptk) or even (yaw-yan, olisistrisimo) but i still have strong feelings for caccw, pankration athlima, jh-52 and i definitly wouldn't forget that i came from and trained in shintoryu, mongoose, boxing and saber fencing.

so it's really up to you if you want to or could give back. i would.

 

*nods head vigorously*

Hi Diego_Vega,
Good points!

Yeah...the FMA Nat'l Congress. I was quite surprised by what that man said. I actually think that I looked around the room for people's reactions...

Hey...maybe we can 'exchange notes' about the neijia styles we know.

Yup, I agree with this point. I recall my neijia instructor telling me that even just watching something will affect your practice somehow (maybe it depends on how intently you watched...).

Ciao for now

 

pat,

i love the idea of p.a.s.o. but as bayani said, filipinos will read it as

paso: a pot (the type where you put soil and stick a plant in not the herb)
or paso: expired
or paso: burn (as in: na paso ako: i got burned).

hope you can think of a better acronym.

 

"Exchange notes"? Is that like a challenge or something?

How about fma? Sure, great idea.

 

I heard some foreigners were asked 12000 pesos a day in Manila (lodging&food included)...Some charge 1500 pesos an hour in Cebu now..

I think I heard about this congress, was it the venue where a mayor threatened to challenge to the death fma practitioners who would disagree?

 

12,000 pesos? Okay, let's say an average hotel room costs about 2,000 pesos a day, and 3 meals plus snacks and bottled water another 1,000. That would leave 9,000 for the instruction. 9,000 equals about $163 U.S. Was that for private lessons? I've paid more than that for private lessons in the United States. I guess the question in this particular thread is, is that price out of line? I mean just because the minimum wage here in the National Capital Region (Metro Manila) is 250 pesos, less than $5 U.S. a day, should the cost our masters charge be in line with that?

No, there was no challenge to the death at the Congress I attended. Just a "last man standing" challenge to see who would teach in the public schools.
All kidding aside, the meeting was actually rather cordial. I got to meet GM's Jose Mena, Vic Sanchez (got his autograph too), Romy Macapagal, and "Mayor Latigo" Melito Geronimo, and such other authorities as Pedro Reyes. (No, Mayor Latigo didn't challenge anyone to the death :Angel:

 

Cheers for that, any ideas as it is hard to shorten the Philippine All Styles Organsation with anything else

I will think on it though and if any of you have any ideas or imput regarding the Org then please by all means make the suggestions. After all the intention is to make is fair and un-biased to everyone (yes I know you cant please everyone but we can have a dam good try).

But here are few things that may be relevant?

Plant in a pot eh, after all are we not trying to grow unity??? and if we are all in the same pot together would that not be a good thing.

Expired, could be the old way of promoting only one style within an organsation has gone???

Burn, maybe it is about time we burn past memories and disputes between the styles and started showing a unified front???

Mabuhay


Pat

 

Hmm I don't think heberging a student and providing meals would not cost more than 500 pesos a day . I take private Wing Chun lessons with a master in the UK and it costs me around 40$ an hour but this is the UK not the Philippines...
300-500 pesos for two hours of training represents already a lot for the average filipino.... Working on Manila's pier wouldn't earn more than 5000 pesos a month, and some maids earn only 1200 pesos monthly...in many areas of Mindanao farmers and security guards are glad to work everyday, 12 hours a day for 2000 pesos...

 

So how would you explain to the instructor that they would easily pay $50 to $300 an hour abroad? These are the very reasons why they would rather leave the country and teach else where knowing that for one thing, they are much in demand and what they teach is appreciated and compensated for. will the prices be more expensive for those coming from abroad also known as "tourist prices?" YES. because by comparrison it's still a good deal. Is it fair? Think about what you have learned and what it's worth to you sometimes you're nickle and diming for cents or a couple of bucks to you, what would it mean to those who earn in pesos? Filial responsibility? I know my $$ would go farther to local instructors I don't mind paying more bucks. I'm sure if you're strapped for cash they would adjust this too. For one thing, they appreciate that you would pay them for the knowledge they have, heck some of us who have a following have a hard time taking money for something we would do anyway because we love it but there are bills to pay too.

 

Oh come on.

What is worng with the Pinoy's charging $40 to $50 per hour for private lessons? many would be more than happy to pay this fee in the UK or USA some even pay as much as $120 per hour.

Just because someone lives in a country where the average wage is as little as $5 per hour does not mean that everyone should work for $5 per hour.

After all you are paying for their knowledge and I am sure that many who have trained in the Philippines will be more than happy to charge $40 to $50 per hour if not more once they have brought that knowledge home.

These guys have spent years developing thier skills and have the scar's to prove it, it is only fair that they should be able to live in comfort for passing on their knowledge. after all dont we abroad charge for our time and 90% of us live a dam site more comfortably than the masters we have learnt our skills from.

Mabyhay

Pat O'Malley

 

I thoroughly agree with Bayani and Pat.

As a foreigner here in the Philippines, I pay anywhere between 500 pesos to 1500 pesos for a lesson and I am happy to pay that. In Australia, it costs AUS$40 for a private kickboxing session and that is with a trainer who is not a champion or former champion.

Funnily enough, there are those foreigners who live here in comfort and they are the ones who complain about the cost of training fees. If you are a doctor and attended university to become qualified, would you be happy attending to a patients needs for $5? I doubt it.

The masters of FMA have dedicated their lives and made sacrifices to learn and promote their martial arts. Nothing is wrong with them being paid accordingly.

 

Many instructors know they could earn this abroad and still stay in the Philippines, not all are interested in making money out of mas...
A few are even teaching for free...

If a GM considers students as "tourists" then, in my opinion there is a serious problem... learning traditional mas implies becoming a member of a brotherhood or even the GM's familly.

The knowldege I receive from my instructors is priceless, I cannot quantify it in terms of money, anyway I don't have intentions to teach outside of my close familly-friends and make a single buck out of it... If one my instructors has financial problems he knows I will help him, same is true with the other members of the brotherhood.

I am sure most would but this is unfortunately not always the case
... money changes peoples and ugly things happen sometimes...

I don't see any problem with this abroad, for instance private lessons in Japan cost a lot more. The problem is that 50$ do not represent the same consumption power in the Philippines and the USA, this is difficult to understand for foreigners....50$ in the Philippines will buy you far more goods/services there than in the USA and Europe. Giving one day's average salary (5$) for one hour of work makes sense to me... I still remember the value of money, fellow pinoy martists and friends already called me a fool for giving that amount.

To answer your question I am a doctor, attended university and had to work at the same time ....but I already worked for free in a developping country and am quite happy about it.

 

Krys,
We're talking about Filial responsibility and ways to help out. While all your points are valid regarding those of us who teach for close to nothing. The Late Edgar Sultie told me that when he was learning form the Late Master Caballero, he used to offer Sacks of rice as payment for what he learned , though master Caballero never asked for a particulaer payment Edgar would offer more than what he himself could afford to give. While $50 buck is way a lot more but think of it as extra, it could also contribute to medicines, food, even equiptment for training etc.

krys wrote:"The knowldege I receive from my instructors is priceless, I cannot quantify it in terms of money, anyway I don't have intentions to teach outside of my close familly-friends and make a single buck out of it... If one my instructors has financial problems he knows I will help him, same is true with the other members of the brotherhood

Great attitude but you also know that some people will never ask help form others..

Krys wrote:"If a GM considers students as "tourists" then, in my opinion there is a serious problem... learning traditional mas implies becoming a member of a brotherhood or even the GM's familly.

"Tourist prices" was just a general term reffering to the use of $$ instead of pesos and how much more it means . Paying $50 in the U.S for an hour compared to $50 in the Philippines for an hour. Most people who come to the Philippines to learn FMA from GM's usually do so by refferal and probably already pay some instructor of the same system abroad some form of fee for training. If one pays $50 to $300 a month then come to the Philippines and pay the GM $5 ? Does'nt quite sound right unless of course they are really strapped for cash and once again go by case to case basis but most who can afford to travel to learn Martial Arts acroos the continent must have some form of ability to raise $$ , this revenue not only helps the instructor but the local economy as well.

Anyway Krys (check your PM)

Mabuhay!

 

guys stop this talk of high prices! diego_vega might just start charging me more for my lessons!

 

Good posts Bayani, Diego_Vega. I have nothing about redistributing wealth and think most filipinos deserve better salaries...

My training partner and I came to SEA at an early age to study mas with very little money in our pockest at that time and no referrals at all... we couldn't have paid 50$ an hour then.
Not all fma addicted foreigners are full of cash, for instance my french training partner had to survive in Quezon city with only 16000 pesos a month caring for his unemployed filipina wife...a few foreigners even stayed in their GM's house in Tondo because it allowed them to save money and stay longuer in the country. As a matter of fact the friends I mentioned were ashamed because they couldn't give the same amount of money than I and stopped coming to the classes even if the master would have taught them for free....

It is expensive for most filipinos.... One big problem is the 5/6 system and the many scams (money games,pyramid schemes and others) low earning filipinos are exposed to. In terms of foreign prices local meat and fish is not that expensive if you buy it at wet markets... I try to avoid foreign products and goods when I am staying in the islands...

 

speaking of good value for money, i found this advert on another site. just illustrating a point of how "cheap" is "cheap"

Filipino Martial Arts/Martial Arts
Enthusiast, Blackbelt, Instructors, and school Owner of any Styles/Systems

You are cordially invited to attend the Rapido Realismo Martial Arts Basic Instructorship Course Seminar

When: November 29, 2004 – December 12, 2004 Separated into 10 Days of Training, 1 Day of Q&A, Review and Evaluation, and 1 day of Actual test written (orally) and demonstration of learned techniques with full Contact Sparring of course.

Venue: Rizal National Park ( A.K.A Luneta ), Manila, Philippines ( Subject to changes ).

Who can Attend: Preparably Blackbelts/Instructors of any styles/systems, but beginners are also welcome.

How much to pay: Training Fees only. ( Pre- Registration and $ 100 USD deposits required ). Before November 8, 2004 ---------- $ 425 USD After November 8-22, 2004 ------ $ 550 USD *Hotel, foods, drinks, and other personal things you need are not included to the fees. Avail a discounts for Group rates.

Suggested Hotel/Logde: We will find a good one for you to stay comfortable and affordable which are close to the training place.

Instructed by: Punongguro Henry E. Espera ( Founder and System Head Instructors ). Assisted by his few seniors Students.

Beware

PG Espera learned and based his Arts from proven WW2 guerilla fighting arts and Proven Street fighting arts. He was been taught in a traditional manner of old maestro/fighter of Filipino Martial Arts and wanted to impart his knowledge the same way as purely combative arts. So we will implementing a very tough screening and no one will be sure of acceptance if you don't reach those criteria. We better cancel this Seminar/workshop than having a fool, blowhards participants and due to the combat nature of the Arts, Pain, Bump, and Bruises are expected but we will try to minimize it. SO TO AVOID ANY MISTAKE OF ALLOWING THOSE KIND OF ATTENDEE, PLEASE SEND THE FOLLOWING:

• Application form with Written Application ( why do you want to attend and study this Arts, how can you help propagating and promoting the Arts, Are planning to found and operate your own Training Groups, Assurance that you wont misuse what you will learn from us in any criminal act, Assurance that you wont disgrace the Arts and its founder, Have you ever convicted any criminal case, and any proof that you are a good citizen of your state/country. • Release Liability Waiver (form). • $ 100 USD deposit for our assurance that you will come and not wasting our time.

Benefits

• Hands on training and lecture of a comprehensive, unique, exciting combat curriculum that compliments any Style/System. • One year automatic membership to the Rapido Realismo International. • Membership Certificate and ID Card. • Basic Instructor Certificate and ID card upon completion. • Free Official Shirt/ Uniform. • Optional if you want to: License/credential as official Group Leader and Representative of his/her State/Country, and recognition of your own Training Groups ( if you have one or wanted to form ). • Invitations to Seminars/Camps and other events. • Invitation to members only workshop. • Discounts on all Rapido Realismo related items. • Discounts on Seminars/Camp and other events. • Discounts for you and your students. • Discounts on Private Instruction. • Your Information are posted at Rapido Realismo official Websites.

Due to the attendees limitation ( 10-20 participants only ), and for preparation we encourage you to register now and send it with your deposit to:

By International Postal Money Order, Rapido Realismo International c/o Isagani Abon 156 Sitio Puting Bato, NBBS., Navotas, Metro Manila, 1485, Philippines.

brother nasty has trained with these guys before and he says that the system is sound. my teacher said that it's expensive by local standards but cheap by standards of those who earn in $s or euros.

 

Weell said, I could not have said it better myself. A failed tennis player will become a tennis coach and charge around $60 to $70 pr hour, so why can't an expeariance successfull Eskrimador Master charge the same if not more.

What do people want, they are willing to pay for a Toyota at home but when they come to the Philippines the want a Rolls Royce for the price of a CardBoard Box. As was said before, the knowldge that is passed on is priceless so why is $50 per hour so expensive

Pay the Masters what they are due, after all why should they NOT live in comfort and why shgould theyNOT be able to affoard the Medicine bills.
Turst me I have seen many people travel to the Philippines and plead poverty. What they see as poverty and what is real poverty is two different sides of the coin. Yes, charge in accordance whith what people can afford, I do that here in the UK, the fees I charge are I have been told too low, but I can afford to charge less because my job pays well. but remember, if someone can pay $1000 to $2000 for fly to the Philippines then I am sure they can pay more than $5 per hour to train with an expearianced Expert.

 

Originally Posted by Diego_Vega
If my Canadian students could afford to pay me $50 an hour while I was training them in Canada, they can sure as hell expect the same rates if they train with me here in the PHilippines. Same service (and same punishment, an FMA teacher takes so much physical punishment both through sparring and accidentally from students) same cost.

Diego, You taught in Canada and got paid $50 an hour?