Think Fight Club with swords. From 1957 Actually, this is still practiced in Germany. Combatants are members of fighting fraternities, which generally restrict membership to students at the local university. Each fraternity has its own colors, generally worn on an armband to identify members. There is rarely any serious animosity between one fraternity and another. In a mensur, the two opponents are wrapped in padding of leather, silk, and other cloth to protect their arms, chest, and throat from the razor-sharp schlagers used in the duel. Eyes are covered with specially-made goggles and only the cheeks and forehead are left exposed. Combatants are placed within a sword-length of each other and once fighting begins it is not stopped except for bleeding or an act of dishonor. An act of dishonor includes retreating (legs are generally held in place by one's fraternity-mates) or flinching but does not include parrying. Once blood is drawn, the mensur is halted and the wound is inspected by a doctor (who is present for all mensur). If the wound is less than one onch wide or one inch deep, the fight continues until such a wound is produced. I don't know if this is still the case, but it was once quite fashionable for schlager fencers to pour sand in a wound so that it would puff up and appear much more prominent, a literal battle scar. For a fascinating first-hand account of a mensur, read J. Christoph Amberger's The Secret History of the Sword. Louie
Although bloody, mensur is not a martial art, ie. it is not, and cannot be, used for self-defense. As was pointed out on a thead on the ARMA Forum, at best mensur is about character development and fraternal comeraderie. Mensur is not a true form of swordsmanship. Masochism for the sake of bragging rights about a scar really has no place on a forum for discussion of martial arts. Rotten.com would be a better place for mensur.
I read about these guys in "by the sword" by Richard Cohen. Facinating stuff. Absoloutely astonishing that dueling is still alive. I respect them for their fearlessness towards pain.
Hi Ran... The mensur is a direct decendant or branch of Western martial arts and an existing one at that which I believe should be brought to the attention of the wider MA community. Before this type of training drill became part of the "regulated" duel, being able to stand unflinching and face an opponent who is trying to slash your face would have been an important part of the training in some schools. Later in the 16-1700's in early prize-fighting bouts, sword cuts which included ones to the face, scored points... Today this 'drill' has evolved into an event for character development and fraternal comeraderie as you've mentioned...but it was once one of the ultimate self-defence skills - being steadfast, calm and unflinching against a sword! Louie
In Scotland only Neds have chib marks!!! :Angel: These mensur graduates don't look too attractive either..... Louie
I agree Louie, there are many decendant arts which should be recognised for there historical roots. The Bear.
To ignore historical events/practices because you dont like it or look down on it strikes me as a tad odd for a group dedicated to the resurrection of lost martial arts. Makes us no better than the MSP who said '... there is no need for anyone in todays society to own a sword' ... or words to that effect. Having said that ... I'll be sticking to my longsword!
It is not a matter of looking down on mensur or not liking it, its just a simple case of mensur having no real martial arts value. Mensur teaches you nothing useful for defending yourself against an attacker. Clearly mensur has some value for a select group of people, else it would fade away. But Mensur has no real value to offer to martial artists who are looking at it for some martial value. A real martial art does not teach you to just stand still and take an injury from an attacker. In that light it is clear that mensur teaches something that is the opposite of a real martial art. So in closing let me point out that mensur is not a lost martial art - it is neither lost or a martial art.
Hi Ran.... Yes, it's not a martial art, it's a branch or drill from WMA.... There are a number of martial arts which include drills in which you have to stand and be punched & kicked, and others where you are hit with sticks, iron bars and dull blades in order to 'acclimatise' yourself to pain and the shock of being hit - Chinese Iron Shirt training is one of these. In Don Draeger's book on Indonesian silat he describes blade instructors who take a lime to training in order to disinfect the knife wounds which are a regular occurance at training - These are extreme examples of training created in extreme times and the majority of MAP martial artists don't realise that similiar types of 'extreme drills' were/are used in Western MA - so I believe the mensur does have a place within WMA and this discussion list and will leave it up so that others can make up their minds for themselves! Cheers! Louie P.S. And if nothing else it teaches us the consequence of not training with masks!
Louie thanks for putting up those articles I don't venture into this part of the forum much but I really enjoyed reading the articles about mensur- seriously much obliged!
And neither is German Longsword, Rapier, Messer, or Pole-Axe particularly applicable to modern self-defense. If you're going to use only "self-defense" applicability to define what is and is not a "martial art" then you're going to be tossing out quite a bit of stuff. I'm sure the Naginata-do fellas are gonna be disappointed to find that their art has been removed from the list but I'll just explain to them that I can't find any references to a Naginata being used in self defense for the past century or two. ;-) Peace favor your sword, Kirk
Two people using live blade to hit each other and prevent getting hit in return. I can't imagine how that wouldn't hold value to a study of martial arts. Even on principle alone, the study of martial arts has been as much a civil (duelling) affair as a military (battlefield) one for ages now. I can't begin to imagine why talk of mensur would be inappropriate here. As a sidenote, do I even want to know how the doctor determined the depth of a cut before deciding whether the bout could continue? I mean width, sure. But depth? Stuart
Another dramatised view of the Mensur on youtube - this time on one of Agatha Christie's Poirot TV dramas.... http://youtube.com/watch?v=4AsyxhZfEwg Louie
Hi Louie Great stuff louie!! I remember reading an article with regards to these guys and it is still on the go in some of Germanys finest Universities for the upper tier of German society, the high end bankers and business men of the future partake in the practice. They see themselves as a continuation of the Prussian blue bloods. It is used to show strength of character and the scars are a symbol of it. It shows great martial spirit and it requires skill through drills to achieve a level to be allowed to compete in the duels. In my opinion Ran is wrong to say it has no martial value! There are many aspects to martial ability and this has a couple in abundance. Regards Teddy Bear
