I won't jump to conclusions and call it dumb, but I am curious as to how on earth one might get a resisting opponent into that ridiculous position.
You couldn't. If it's an ude garami, the arm is entangled on the wrong side, no grip, no control, no nothing. People would have to literally put themselves in this position.
Guys...granted the pic is a pretty poor one - the guy doesn't have any control on the arm at all - but i think alot of people have pounced on it without realizing its application. This form of ude garami is the most common one seen in the system i study. You can't simply manouver someone into this...Oversoul was correct, its too odd of a position. You have to set them up....i'll give you our most common example. Opponent does a round punch....you enter, blocking and striking at the same time. While he is unbalanced, you use your right hand (assuming you blocked with your left), hook the elbow and join your hands together while rotating around to pull their shoulder down and destroy their posture. You can, as the pic denotes, walk straight forward, but it requires a bit more strength than rotating. I know it looks stupid form that pic but i see this successfully performed in sparring all the time against resisting opponents. You just need a good rotation and a decent hook of the hands...the pressure on their shoulder mixed with the rotation puts them on the floor very quickly with very little time to resist (after the initial strike) when done right it is a very fast, powerful lock, and has been a large part of Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu for 600 years. Now that i think about it, a 'close' strangle with the arms bent forward is an even easier attack to do it from - the arm is already in position, all you have to do is hook it and pull it down. Even if they do manage to straighten their arm - which is a possibility, as with any technique - you've got them in arm set arm breaking. I'd be happy to discuss this further if anyone still disagrees.....hell, it is escapable, i'll admit it, i just find it works well for me 'most' of the time
We get taught it at white belt as a basic lead up to our first type of knife defence, if they have the arm bent back ionto that position allready to strike with the knife then you surgee in and go for the lock, it's does not really seem that usefull though and you rarely see it used by any of the gigher grades when they do their circles and v's but just occasionally someones arm ends up in that position for some random reason or other.
Yah, I have that set up in my next grading against an overhead tanbo attack...it's hard because first you have to realise what attack it is, and then you have to stop it before they re-extend their arm :woo: My grading also has a roundhouse tanbo attack in there so if i pick the technique wrong i'm going to end up with a tanbo smacking the side of my head, lol. We don't practise this against a knife because you're too liable to get your hands sliced up but hey if they have a knife welcome to sliceville, lol. (and that wasn't a slam on your style btw...just thought i'd mention it). To be honest i don't like this method of getting to this lock and it's on the bottom of my list of things i'd use....if you're smaller than most (like me) it's virtually impossible to get their arm in the correct position. I prefer setting it up from a round attack. You can always move to the outside of the attack and rotate them, then while their stumbling around loop your arm through for the same lock but: A) their are easier lcoks to do from that position (we call it 'neutral') B) you need a committed attack (ie; momentum) to get them rotating, whihc may or may not happen depending on the skill of your opponent and if he is expecting you to move out of the way. What was my point again? Oh yea.. Slindsay, you're right...even if it won't work as much as we'd like, sometimes you will find yourself set up for it...so why deny yourself that tool? Wow i should win an award for long and pointless post huh?
I've ended up in a version of that lock after an ippon seoi nage failed at the very first step before now. Because of the location of your right arm (assuming a normal sided throw) a typical ude garami would be impractical, so this lock is ideal. However, the picture shown is far from an ideal version of this lock, which would involve closed elbows, their arm more bent and the locker's hands gripping on to the wrist. This technique can be applied from an overhead strike, but it is an appalling technique to do from there in my opinion. Really learning it from a shomen ate is a method to learn where the arm goes and how to apply pain. The lock is much better when coming from the inside of a punch and can work quite nicely if you manage to get a grip on the wrist with your blocking hand as they withdraw from a parried punch. However, it is vitally important to put in a decent atemi with this, as trying to secure this lock requires both hands, and doing so while inside the opponent's strike range is dangerous even for the fastest such lock. All in all, it's quite a rare technique for me because it's difficult to get into, but it is a very nice back up to a standard ude garami because it can be entered from different positions. I would hasten to add that if I truly wished to get a shoulder lock on someone, I would prefer to start from the outside of their punch and go for an ude garami as suggested by others!
I'm going to say this again. I'm not jumping on this because it is just one picture and I have misunderstood the whole thing. I am jumping on this because of the lack of friggin JU in that technique. You have no control of the arm (NO GRIP) You have no control of your opponents body (NO CONTACT OTHER THAN THE ARMS CROSSING) you can't control the movement, you can't flow with and follow him if he decides to slip out (yes, SLIP out. he's not being gripped, he can straighten his arm, and SLIP OUT!) He is in control of his own position. This technique would only work if you were significantly stronger than your opponent and able to first FORCE HIM into this position. Once you are there however, as mentioned, you are NOT controlling him. He can SLIP OUT! You don't believe me? Try it in sparring. Oh I forgot. You don't spar do you? Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu was created because it's founder did not believe in Kata. Starts off nice doesn't it? But then instead of FREEsparring, he introduced the Step-sparring system. With compliance. So where does that leave us? Up doodie creek without a paddle. And before you pounce on me for this, I'm not saying sparring will teach you all you need to know. I'm not saying that most methods in classic JJ will not teach you anything. I'm saying that stuff like the falcon lock should be viewed once in a while with critical eyes. "But why fanatical? they surely knew what they were doing a thousand years ago right?" In some cases yes, in some cases no. Earlier generations were contrary to popular belief, NOT smarter than us. They were dumber. Earlier generations also had different criteria for their methods and usage. And I'm not saying stuff should be discarded at the first notice of a problem, but we need to start thinking for ourselves people! The whole MA community is a gaggle of puppets simply following the "old code" without bothering with why did they do it? And am I in their situation? Take some forms of the classic defence against a wrist grab. No one grabs your wrist nowadays for no apparent reason. But they did in the "olden days". Why? Because in a conflict, you would reach for your sword. They needed to stop you while drawing their own, so they grabbed your wrist to hold you back. This could be used to your advantage. Does this help me today? NO. Is this an effective technique? NO. Why? Because we're not walking around with swords. Does that mean we should dump it forever? Not necessarily, but we need to stop acting like everything has a godly purpose that the original creators were able to see into the future to plan out. Face it. They were pioneers, but they were NOT smarter, they were NOT better. It's up to us to BE smarter, to BE better. To try and test, and in the end say: "This is not useful, this has flaws." Or "this is good and we can use it". Maybe not forget the rest, but make sure you KNOW what you can do. Make sure you KNOW how to do it. Or every training is just a big shakespear play where everybody acts out their parts and no one is the wiser. And when I say that this technique makes no sense to me. It has none of the criteria for effectiveness that will be discovered by simply testing it on an opponent who will actively resist anything you do + he will be attacking you himself + he will defend + he will move + he will THINK!. I've written a lot of nonsense about nothing here. But the point still stands. IMO that technique is one of the most useless applications of Ude Garami I have yet to see.
I very much disagree with this analysis of the technique, at least when done properly. The opponent's body is controlled through the lock applied to their shoulder in much the same way as any standing joint lock. The locker's forearms keep the pressure of the lock on the attacker's shoulder by stopping them from being able to lower the arm. When applied correctly, the locker's elbows are together and the write is trapped in an "arch" of the locker's hands and arms, which effectively stops them from straightening their arm, or even moving much. Again I disagree with this statement, since this technique has been applied on me while I was resisting by a 5 foot female instructor (certainly not stronger than me!), and there is absolutely no way to slip out of it while it is on properly (though with the elbows open it is a much less secure lock).
By all means disagree. Although I'm not talking about "when the lock is applied correctly you will have nowhere to go" Which is about the same as numerous threads around the web on "how do I escape an armbar after it's completely locked in?" The answer to which is, you can't unless your name is Dr. Reed Richards. Really? People much stronger than me can power out of almost fully set armbars if they really are a lot stronger than me. So I'm guessing you missed my point. Which was that actually DOING this.. in SPARRING.. or IN A FIGHT, or SELF DEFENCE of any kind. Is almost literally impossible. I'm not talking about how an ude garami will not work if it is actually SET IN. Nor am I saying that if you let this be applied, you can still get out. Because regardless of the gotarded grip, this is an ude garami. But like I said, it is the worst possible solution I've seen. Again, I add. That is my opinon. Why do I think so? Again I have to mention the fact that, say watch a Pride FC fight with Kazushi Sakuraba. A man who uses ude garami/kimura to great lengths, even standing. (in his case, usually against a rear embrace under the arms) And I'm not trying to turn this into an MMA rules thing, but the point is that if you EVER try to free spar and someone attempts this, it will fail. That is and will be my opinion no matter if a 5 foot woman can make you feel pain with it when you allow her to lock it in AND THEN resist...
When did I say I only started resisting after she'd locked it into place? If you don't like it, then say so, but you should really look more into this technique before you completely dismiss it. As I mentioned in my previous post, this is not designed to be done instead of ude garami, it works from positions where and ude garami is very difficult to achieve without a long-winded manipulation of an opponent's arm. The lock itself feels very different to an ude garami, with more pain being applied to the elbow than an ude garami. This is something I am all too familiar with, as I accidentally gave a training partner some fairly major tendon damage using this technique back in March or thereabouts (a rather loud popping sound accompanied it, one reason I really dislike doing this technique any more) Anyway, my basic points for this technique are that it is possible to manipulate an opponent into this technique, control if possible, break something if not, but it's hardly a first choice technique for anyone I know. I personally see it as one of those "if I happen to end up in a position where it could work from, I'll give it a try" techniques rather than a technique I use a lot.
It's all about the kneebar. As far as takedowns either double leg (Matt Hughes style) or a high crotch lift.
What's that supposed to mean? It works against a round punch...i've DONE it....yes, in a full contact/resistance match. All you need is a nice strike and a good hook of the elbow. Sorry if i've got the wrong end of the stick but i really don't see your point... you think a round punch is a stupid attack? You prefer if i called it a right hook?
