FAQ - What is a McDojo and How Do I Spot One?

Epic

I got my pistol, are you ready?

Duel set match.

 

I was wondering....

If you opened a school and called it 'McDojo' would it be incredibly successful because people would say "I've heard of them" ???

 

uniforms would be yellow with red shoes a red wig and white face paint, top rank instructor would wear a red belt with yellow arches on it possibly?

 

The thing I look for in a good sports club, just to flip this thread on it's head a little, is a fighters page with the fighters having recent bouts and maybe the odd championship belt etc: usually a great indication

 

Good point moi.

I've noticed more and more when you ask what style a mcstudent or mcsensi teaches it the answer is getting more and more vague.
I Was speaking to a young lad my little cousin knows this weekend and when I asked what style he trained he shrugged and mumbled "well ugh I don't really know, we mix it up, ughh last week we where doing eeuummm Thai kickboxing this week it's more Kung fuu."
I was going to ask what qualified his coach to teach those styles but didn't want to embarrass the poor lad he was just young.


Was proud to here my little cousin tell him it sounded like bolocks and invite him to his MMA club.

 

The fact that a teacher may teach multiple styles and the fact that the student can't be bothered to pay attention or do the research doesn't make a club a McDojo. For me it's all about the quality of the club and how it's run.

Something I have noticed since I first started posting here on MAP that beginners need to be equally aware of is that many people will unfairly label a club a McDojo. It may be the club is a competing school or they simply do not like the style or perhaps had a bad experience with that style in the past.

When making such a judgement we really need to experience the school and do the research. Hearsay and rumour are not valid sources of information to be be used to trash someone else's reputation and perhaps destroy their livelihood. People very seldom have unbiased opinions.

 

Integrity

Great post, integrity is all, and this should shine through in a well run club, but for me the multiple style thing is a drawback, as I'm of the opinion if you "chase two rabbits, you will go hungry".

But hey, each to their own, my experience was through mixing it up, through competing now and again, I was lessening my time doing what I was really there for: street self-defense.

Of course, as you rightly imply, this doesn't mean my former club was a Mcdojo. The proof's in the pudding, and as we are all biased to a degree, we should be careful with how our opinions influence others.

I suppose it all depends on what a person is looking for, and some clubs will meet a persons needs better than others.

 

Clarification:

There seem to be some misunderstanding on my concept of “hybrid”.
An individual cross-training within multiple styles – or a school location offering students classes in different distinct styles was not what I was getting at – in fact almost all serious martial artists I have known study two or more styles sometimes during their lifetime training regime.

It is the marketing of a eclectic, one-size fits all school system paradigm that should be a red flag of a possible McDojo when they are also using Oriental traditions/terminology to validate themselves.

If the instructor said he teaches (created?) a "Southern Praying Mantis -Tae Kwon Do blended style" that is far superior in “street self-defense” than traditional styles… well maybe time to Raise the Shields.

But in the end it is also about the “Business Practices” of how/what they charge students and the quality of product/instruction offered. For the consumer - Martial Arts schools have some things in common as in how we judge restaurants:

• Food Quantity of the Servings for the price (Hours of Classes offered)
• Food Quality Delivered (Knowledge transfer from instructor – rigors of curriculum as a “martial art”)
• Ambience of the Restaurant (Attitude and interactions between the instructors and students – physical facilities)

But if you don’t like Thai food – then you don’t eat at Thai restaurants.

 

I have nothing against teachers blending styles with the proviso they have the experience, understanding and skill to do so. Many systems of martial arts considered to be a single style are in fact a blend of several styles and systems. It does however worry me when a student of a relatively low grade and only a few years experience under his belt begins teaching. It worries me even more when those students begin mixing art they haven't trained in.

To my horror a teacher at a club I helped set up started doing this. He decided he'd mix Aikido with a style of Jujutsu he'd never trained in. But had instead bought some distance learning DVDs. He'd try and learn the technique before introducing it to the class. And when he did introduce those techniques to the class, they'd never work properly. The whole class would be derailed trying to figure out how this technique we'd never seen before worked. It was like the blind leading the blind.

When I discovered the source of this "teachers" inspiration I refused to have anything more to do with him or his club and cut all ties.

 

It's not about the money, money, money
We don't need your money, money, money
We just wanna make the world fight,
Forget about the Price Tag

Ain't about the (ha) Ka-Ching Ka-Ching.
Ain't about the (yeah) Ba-Bling Ba-Bling
Wanna make the world fight,
Forget about the Price Tag.

 

Thanks for that moi.

 

Also: beware of "Down Payments" which are not credited towards the amount you owe.
They are actually disguised initiation fees. Membership/initiation fees might be okay, if they
are not hidden. Ask if they are recurring too.

I couldn't agree more. That's one of the risks with closed shop unions - if they stop
working hard for members, they still get their money. Same with Cable/Satellite TV contracts.

I saw a McDojo review by a mother who lost a lot of money. The McDojo said "Think of
it like a cell phone contract" The mother pointed out that you get to keep the phone,
but I say even then, it's a scam.

If the Dojo says "It's just like...", think about whether it's because they copied some other scam.

We are in the process of finding a MA school for our kids, and it's frustrating.
One teacher was excellent at working with our daughter, but requires 6 or 12
month contracts.
It is expensive (of course) when adding in test fees, organization membership,
contests, eqpt (even if bought elsewhere, it's an expense for us) etc.
I might have considered biting the bullet and spending more, but the unclear business
practices left a foul taste in my mouth.
Sadly, the main teacher seems like a super nice guy who's a very good teacher.
He even seems very motivated to teach the art. But when we asked for a list of the
costs, he wrote it on a note pad (and didn't list everything - it was our first experience,
so I didn't know to ask about test fees, memberships, eqpt, etc.

So our search is ongoing.

 

There is nothing wrong with a great sensei being well-paid, but doing the right thing when it comes to transparency of fees is an absolutely essential practice. And let's face it, in the long run doing the right thing will ensure the sensei is well-paid. Good luck in your search. There are other good instructors out there, Mark 42.

 

Think of it as buying a car. It has to do what it says. If you are buying a well known exclusive brand, expect to pay a premium

 

If only that was true

 

Price is different than obfuscation.
When the tactics involve collecting for services a customer no longer wants,
that's not ethical.
It's like when my dad bought his van. He was in his 70's, and not a good negotiator.
They agreed on a price, then the dealer came back and said "Oh, we're sorry, we gave
you the price for the base model - this one is a Club Wagon, so the correct price is $$$$.
They knew he had already mentally bought the van. It was a classic bait and switch.
They know that if they give the real price right away, people might balk.
It's psychological warfare.
The other method is start too high and work down to the real price. This lets them end
at the highest price the customer will pay. Throw in deceptive tactics like "I will have to
see if my manager can approve such a low price... even though the salesman already knows
he is going to sell it, and he just goes and BS's with the guy in the next office,
who may not even be a manager.
It's just a closing tactic.

At a McDojo, they want you or your kids to take the intro lessons, get attached
to the instructor and the other students, then they can drop the hammer.

If they won't disclose all of the costs before you do the intro package, there's likely a reason.

 

I'm working on a list of questions to ask the person in charge when looking for a school.
Sometimes, how they answer questions can be telling.

It's not so much the amount as whether it is clearly stated up front.

The average mom & dad don't know about membership fees, testing fees,
promotion fees, organization fees, seminar fees, and possibly buying the
Dojo's gear (with name embroidered) for a premium price.

When most people hear "downpayment" they expect it to go towards the
balance owed.

 

There's nothing wrong with charging a premium price. I'm sure someone
with a reputation or name like Chuck Norris would be able to charge top
dollar, and students who want him as an instructor would expect it.

If people are going to pay a premium price, they should know that fact.

And, they should be able to back out rather than be stuck in a contract
when their kid's enthusiasm wanes and it's not something they want to
continue with. Forcing a kid to go to lessons simply because you have to
pay for them no matter what, is not going to make for a good learning
environment.

Also, if the parent loses his or her job, or gets transferred to a different
work location, or hits a hardship... or the student gets injured, or there
is some other reason they no longer want to continue, is it right to make
them continue to pay for lessons for the remainder of the 6 or 12 month
contract?

What happens when they find out that they are paying a "premium price"?
Especially if they didn't even know... until they had signed a contract
and later found out that there are more fees than just the cost of lessons?

If I were tied into a contract I couldn't get out of, I would be tempted
to take the low road and have a lawyer friend call and tell the school that
if they don't let me out of the contract, my kid just might get injured in class,
in which case I would hold the instructors and school liable and file a
lawsuit for the injuries.

It's dirty... but Bruce Lee did teach that in battle, sometime you have to
fight dirty when situation warrants.

I think it's really sad that there are schools which bank on the fact that most
people don't continue their lessons for 6 months or a year & deliberately use
that to get money for doing nothing. It's unethical for Gyms, phone plans,
and IMNSHO, even extended many service contracts (I would rather have
the money than have a home warranty when I buy a house - anything that
breaks is likely not covered - and I can probably fix it myself!).

 

for my mind...the first warning sign of a mcdojo is the contract. if you have to sign one in order to do martial arts, then run and quickly.

 

Dealing with Contracts

1. Martial arts instructors are generally bound by the same laws as any similar service provider. Say a fitness instructor, health club or gym for example. If there is a contract to sign, the correct terms and conditions should all be listed in the contract. There should be no surprises. So make sure you keep a signed copy of the contract and the instructor signs the contract in front of you.
   
   
2. Make sure you read through any contract you're asked to sign. If you're being pushed to sign without reading, walk away.
   
   
3. Also make sure you get to sign both copies of the contract. They should both be identical. So don't be shy about comparing both bits of paper. If they're not identical, don't sign. Walk away.
   
   
4. In general contracts should also be balanced. Which is generally the expectation of the law. That is to say the terms and conditions of the contract should not be unreasonable and should not be purely focused on the obligations of the client. The contract should also bind the service provider to provide the service under reasonable demands and foreseeable conditions.
   
   However keep in mind what the law deems "reasonable" and what normal people deem "reasonable" are very often two completely different things.
   
   
5. If the instructor cannot produce the original copy of the contract with your original signature on it, then it's normally not enforceable. Normally photo copies or scanned copies are not considered valid by the courts unless they are verifiable copies of the original. But this depends on where you live in the world.
   
   This why large companies spend millions on document archiving and why they're all trying to find legally enforceable alternatives to paper. Ink on paper is king in the eyes of the courts.
   
   
6. Contracts and the ancillary paper work that can go with them also generally contain sensitive personal information. Especially if there are fees being collected by bank standing order, direct debit or some other automated process.
   
   Broadly speaking most developed nations have data protection laws that cover things such as how these documents should be stored, who is allowed to read them and how they can be used. For example can the information be sold on?
   
   If you're the type of person who gets concerned about who has their contact details then feel free to ask how the information is stored and how it's used. If it's in a box under the instructors bed don't fill anything in. Clearly that's not secure. At a minimum paper documents should be stored in a lockable filing cabinet. Any data held on computer or disk should be encrypted and all databases even if it's just a simple spreadsheet should be password locked with restricted access. A PCs login password doesn't count.
   
   Standard levels of encryption tend to be around 64-bit, 128-bit and 256-bit. 64-bit encryption is weak and easily broken. 256-bit is generally considered very strong and hard to break.

In the modern world data is very valuable. Small organisations should be limiting the amount of data they collect because they are simply not set up to protect that data properly and more than likely won't be insured against breaches of data protection laws.