Fan fighting

Good point. It reminds me of this pic:

Anonymous People

Warning - suspect language.

 

Hi Scott

Maybe it is time to hand out the wine gums.

regards koyo

 

Not much chance of that. I am selfish with such goodies...

 

I've tried that, in the air, not actually toward an atacker. It is extremely difficult to control. It you have enough room to fling the fan open pouring dust which was concealled in the fan into their face, you probably have enough room to hit them. The wind blows it back toward you. It doesn't like to stay in the fan either. Maybe, upon seeing an attack, a lady might stoop to put some dust on the open fan, and try to throw it in the face of an attacker busy with someone else.

Of course, it might work better with something heavier than flour, something that can be thrown easier, something between flour and sand.

I think pointy bamboo ends hidden in the feathers also would work at least as well as sharp little blades in the fan. I think it would work better as a stabbing instrument, open or closed, than a slicing one. The feathers get in the way.

 

No, it's more like you being disparaging about how a weapon is used, albeit you don't really know how it is used. Your ignoring posts based on historical and cultural fact and still poo-pooing the weapon and then when you get called on something, you reply with a pithy answer, which in return, shows you up.

Not bullying by any length of the imagination.

And as for your comment about honour. Because things aren't going your way? Do knock it off. We're all (for the most part) grown-ups here.

Bill,

You're probably right. Maybe even get better on in a pub. Go figure.

 

Topic is use of the fan/tessen/whatever its called in CMA, so please stop taking it down the "moderator bullying" route.

If you have any moderation problems, contact me by PM or email rather than complaining about them in the thread.

 

Here's a form of tessen that is quite commonly found in antique weapons galleries. This particular type doesn't open. It's basically a solid length of iron.



Here's a more common form of tessen which does open. Only the outer ribs of this style are iron. The others are bamboo.



Then there is the more edible ebi tessen.

 

If you are any good he should be eating the first one.


regards koyo

 

Huh, interesting, Kogusoku. My fan's ribs are all made of steel.
I have a bamboo one, but prefer the heft of the steel.

 

So do gendai arts use the modern fan.



Yeah of course if Kogusuko ever makes it to Glasgow he will have celtic top waiting for him and a couple pints behind the bar at the Red Lion.
Never let it be said the bear holds a grudge.

The Bear.

 

Take the cover off it and I suppose you could use it if you had a decent lead on it. I doubt anyone would want to attack you if you were wielding a metal-bladed fan spinning at stupid speeds!

Probably get locked up by the men in white coats for trying it like!

 

I heard that in the royal basketball courts of Kilmarnock, they were forbidden bucky bottles. So a legal loophole allowed for a fan to be hidden between their shell suits and Rangers polo shirts.



Not as deadly as a bucky bottle but could give you a nasty chaff.

The Bear.

 

Or a propeller, like in one of the Indiana Jones movies.

 

This is my wiew as well.

On some other threads, we've concluded that EMA and WMA is incredibly similar, and that is why I am a little puzzled on this fan-thing.

Perhaps it's just my understanding that is limited, but when someone states "I study the art of [insert strange impliment here]", it sounds as there is a separate MA-system for this very weapon. Take Fiore di Liberis Fior di Battaglia/Flos Duellatorum (Early renissanse WMA from Italy) to compare: He shows fighting with wooden sticks, wooden clubs, wresteling from horseback, wresteling on foot, spear and lance from horseback, spear on foot, 2h.warhammer, 1h sword, 2h sword, rondelldagger, gloves and scabbard.

But you wouldn't meet someone studying his manual(s) stating "I study the art of gloves"; the glove-technique(s) is shown in the dagger-section, and allthough you might meet people saying "I study Fiore Longsword", they have to look into the other sections of the manual to get the full grasp of the range of techniques you can do with a longsword.

I realize that it probably is exactly the same with EMA, just me getting a little hung up in the asian words, believing that when someone says that they study the fan, it's not an indipendent system that stands alone, rather really just an integrated extention of a bigger picture, am I right?

 

Aye, that's the case if the system is being studied properly.

 

If you have a shrimp allergy, the last one is just as deadly as the first.

 

I think that there is a misconception that traditional arts are "stuck in the past" Major to any traditional art was to be able to face all other arts and weapons of the day.So every school would study the tactics of the other. (cross training? mixed martial arts).It is foolish to imagine that anyone would blindly stick to a curiculum that shall limit their responces in a confrontation.

This is why I am quite pleased to allow some to think aikido has no strikes no first attacks. Suits me fine. :Angel: :Angel:

regards koyo

dare I say traditional martial arts are mixed martial arts?

 

Well, this is the thing. Now, what I'm going to say might be a slight bit inflammatory, but since I have returned from Japan, I have noticed it more and more in the west.

For the most part, there are a great number of instructors out there that don't make the art "live". They've been taught to a certain level of instruction and haven't gotten any higher, nor have been encouraged to explore, analyse or research into what they do. They're basically stuck in a rut and are teaching great forms, but ask them the whys and wherefores and they sometimes can't give a satisfactory answer.

It's usually due to limited instruction, limited exposure to the psychological, physical and scientific principles that make the art work dynamically as it does. This is a two-way street mind you - If the student doesn't ask the right questions, he doesn't get all the info. You're spoonfed a certain amount and eventually, that stops. You'll either stay with what you have, or you'll continue to ask questions to your teacher and your knowledge will accumulate.

When a koryu teaches a kata, it's not just teaching a physical form of how to cut a certain way or lock an arm when in tsuba-zeriai. It's teaching psychological and physical principles of a combative nature. Yes, at the beginning, training is very structured and rigid, looking very dogmatic, but at higher levels, it's as if certain doors are opened and you have total access to the house. (Remember when you were a kid and you weren't allowed into granny's parlour only on special occasions? Then, when you become an adult, you can just walk right in, because you know how to behave. Try and do so before you're of age and you recieve a hiding!) Principles and concepts become more applicable than before at that stage.

In the Japanese language, kata (form) can be written two ways; 形　or 型. Most are familiar with the former rather than the latter. The latter refers to a form which cannot be altered and must remain the same. The former refers to a form or behavorial pattern that can be adapted to certain criteria.

The basic form of the human body never changes. Armed with a striking/cutting tool or unarmed, the number options of attack have a limit. It's down to training, proper tuition and experience how to respond. With most koryu, the same technique will be used again, almost repetatively to show how it can be used to suit any situation, albeit with minor alterations. (e.g. The attacker cuts with shomen-giri (Vertical head cut), use suri-age (rising sliding parry). If the attacker cuts with kesa-giri (diagonal cut to the shoulder/neck), use a modified suri-age to counter.)

Budo gendai or koryu, if taught properly and studied properly, will teach students to be intuitive and use their brain, rather than just be slaves to form.

 

Depends. Kendo is a well-established art, and all it entails is the shinai (as a sub for the katana). That's it last time I checked.

My beef with the criticism of "independent systems" versus "integrated extention of a bigger picture" is that for many folks, it's all about forms. See, it's easy to take Western swordfighting, for example, and either isolate it or make it part of some reconstructed study of Western weapons since you guys actually spar. Eastern weapons study usually comes in as part of an open hand system, and too many people think "because I learned a form, I know how to use a weapon". Uhm, no, that's like saying "because I learned a pattern I know how to fight".

I have sparred with a number of weapons, learned forms for others, and to be frank, I can easily see turning any one of them into a system unto itself. Not necessarily smart, but I can see it.

 

I am with you on that one. Coming from aiki ken and having the luxury of friends who are 5th dan kendo. We cross train with them and getting into the armour and actually fighting was a great experience. We did well because of our timing.distancing and fighting spirit. BUT the kendoka did better (far better) because they train constantly for combat.
Similar with the empty hand techniques we train with judoka and do better there than we do at kendo. All good.
Competing is excellent for testing your principles (rather than simply technique) Training is to develop an intuitive and decisive mind rather than a "competitive" mind in that we cannot allow the thought of losing to enter into our attitude at all.It is best to enter into "things" with an utter conviction of success.
Attack at all times show a superior fighting spirit and dominate the spirit of the opponent.

regards koyo

The main point from kendo was the ability to go from zero to 100% attack in an instant. Below I am really "on my bike" even though this is a kata.