When was it added or removed from the form? I have just been wondering about this. Out of all the main family systems, Chen folk are the only ones (to my knowledge) to do this. I have seen some other people who have made their own Tai Chi system do so too, but from the main ones it is Chen. Why is this? Did everyone else remove it from their form, or did they add it? It would make more sense that they added it after Yang Lu-chan, especially when they used to sell their own style as a martial one, it does look quite impressive. What are you folks thoughts on it?
I don't know much about fajin, but I've never liked the look of the Chen style tbh, it feels wrong for some reason I can't fathom - I'm not convinced that the 'fajin' demonstrated in the Chen form isn't more about the PRC and wushu, and a modern innovation rather than an older survival.... I know this will enrage people but that's my honest opinion. I have also seen other styles demonstrate 'fajin' on vcd's I have of big Taiji expo's in the PRC. The Yang stylists that sadly departed 'nae fun dunn' is a follower of do an 'eight brocades' that is largely about expressing fajin and training the joints for it. But their forms look soft and not overt like the Chen ones. I have also seen Yang 'fajin sets' on clips around here recently. I also think fajin is something you develop as you get into your taiji and everybody's will be different depending on what jins you specialise in and how you train. After all, 'fajin' just means 'issuing power forth' - so which of the eight jins are you issuing? Erle Montaigue insists it is all about 'internal disruption' and 'dim mak' whereas most Yang people are all about 'launching' without doing too much harm... I personally do not think that genuinely internal fajin looks like much at all until you put an opponent on the end of it - then you see it expressed in what it does to said opponent I know this will be bait for some, but that's my view. :Angel:
My Chen style teacher doesn't emphasize fajing actually. He says that at first, students should be almost completely smooth, with no faijing. Fajing is really built on the back of solid relaxation and peng. Without those two things, fajing will be external movement only. Don't be so quick to pick up what you see on vids. Most of that stuff is for demonstration and does not reflect what students should actually train. Too many people value a VCD over the common sense of a local teacher. Dave C.
I have heard folk say it comes from Shaolin, as the Chens Tai Chi Chuan was developed from their local Cannon Fist system, which is backed up by the inclusion of such techniques as 'Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar' I have heard Chen folk say that Yang Chen-fu removed the Fajin elements and the big leaps and dips so that he could teach it to the old and those in poor health, but that can't be true. I dunno myself, hence I am asking about to hear peoples opinions.
I am not, hence asking people for their opinions and experiences. Chen are the only main system to do so however, and I don't believe that they invented it for demonstations, especially when it is not really trained in the system if that is indeed the case. I am just curious as to when it was removed by the other systems or when the Chens added it to theirs. I am leaning towards the Chens added it though, just going by the chances of the other systems all abandoning it. It is no more than a logical thought in my head though, and would like to investigate it.
I don't think the Chens could have added fajin to their form recently unless they made up Paochui recently. You could potentially do the whole first form (Laojia) without fajin, but Paochui would seem wrong without it. Perhaps they used to reserve the majority of the fajin for paochui and then gradually added more and more of it to Laojia in order to make their Laojia look more impressive and distinctive? Then again, I don't think that's completely new, as the Hulei-jia, which is supposedly a traditional form from a village near Chen, is basically Laojia with more fajin and application-oriented moves.
Is it not just a matter of personal choice whether you chose to express fa jin in the form. The way I see it is you can fa jin in almost any posture/movement if you knew how and so desired.
the way to play the form is dependant on focus. There is no 'standard way' to perform tai chi from a yang perspective. It is 'standard' based on the purpose of the training method at that point. If training the old yang form for combat you will use nible stepping, fast connected motions, jumps etc. For Li gung extension of the body and connective tissue with 'held' postures. for health ... deep attension to internal pressures as you move through the form very slow. The reason we think of the form being performed in one certain way is because Tai Chi is basically watered down and 'lost' now. regards. Chris
Chen always had it. Laojia is typically seen with less than Xinjia and PaoChui, but there are a few practiotiners that fill it in. It depends on the goals of who's training. Those with a more martial aim tend to do it more than heath-oriented people. Within Chen, it is completley up to the practitioner. You might notice that when it comes to laojia, different lines execute fajing thru different movements in the form. Also, single postures and movements are drilled in Chen, there is not a single movement within in it that cannot be done without fajing. Pao Chui, does however emphasize it. To answer Brido's question, fajing existed in the Chen curriculum long before Yang Lu Chan. As for Taiji being watered down, or lost? Maybe within other lines but Chen has retained everthing it's had since at least the 1850's. Wu (Jian Quan) style is probably the most watered/stripped down of the prominent styles. Sun is a rich form, but it incorporates priniciples from other arts, so it can't really be considered pure, either. It's hard to tell with Yang lines, 90% of the Yang lineage descends from Yang Cheng Fu, who did water it down. Then there's the infighting and claims over who's got the real "old" Yang. There seems to be a hundred different versions of it, with little similarities to one another or anything else for that matter. Old Yang is supposed to contain the jumping, hard jins, and kicks (including a hurricane kick) than Chen's had. The only forms like this today were done by people who clearly added it back into Yang Cheng Fu's form, and poorly at that. At least from what's been "publicized" . A major indicator as to the accuracy of an "Old Yang" claim is to compare it to the Wu-Hao style's form. Regardless of whatever YLC's sons and grandsons did, the Wu-Hao form most accurately represents what YLC himself actually practiced and taught. This may seem like a big claim, but consider that Wu Hao is what Wu Yu Xiang learned from Yang Lu Chan with only a few changes added by Hao Wei Zhen. The lineage and form are intact. If you've seen the form, the Chen influence is undeniable. I've never seen anything resembling Chen in any "Old Yang" line, whether the lineage claim was to YLC himself, or his sons/grandsons.
Hi 'Taiji Butterfly' and All, My ten cents worth... I think that 'launching' is a modern or ill informed idea - Tai Chi is (was?) a martial art and it makes NO sense to 'launch people'. You want to break people, crush people, snap people, dump people but not launch them (unless fighting near top of high cliff)... The problem is that few people think of Tai Chi as a killing art - I often say that Karate is for consensual violence and Tai Chi is for killing people - I'm trying to add to that - as I start to learn a bit of Bagua - Bagua (possibly) is for killing people that you don't like !!! All the best. Robert.
How can it being non existant in the forms of others be explained then? Yang and Wu certainly don't, so the only common place it can be traced back to is Yang Lu-chan. Did he remove it from the form? People do say he went to the Wudang Mountains to learn the pushing hands excercises, so unless he modified it when all that was going on?
So where was it taken out? You would think that it would have been passed down somewhere? The idea that everyone else over time happened to remove it doesn't seem very plausable...
It was never removed from Chen. Never removed from Wu-Hao. Only from Yang, and it's descendants. (Sun, Wu (Jian Quan)) Within the Yang Family, most likely by Yang Lu Chan's sons. Rumor has it that Yang Chien Hou's form retained some hard jins, but that went bye bye with Cheng Fu. There is no credible evidence, anywhere, that Yang Chien Hou's lineage continued beyond Yang Chen-sheng or Wu Tu-Nan. I will say, however, that a given system's form may, or may not reflect the training methods within that system. Sun style trains hard jins, just not within the form. SOME lines of Yang do this too. But as far as form retaining it goes, only Chen and Wu Hao kept it.
How many people on here practice the Yang Long Boxing? That contains the jumping, skipping and rapid 'emission' techniques that help to open up the fa geng in the YCF form and the footwork in both sword forms.
As already mentioned the Dong family (Wu-Hao) system contains fast forms that include fa jin. Wu Tu Nan form contains it too http://www.taiji-bg.com/video/Wu_Style/Unknown_Master_(Student_of_Wu_Tunan)_Form_Demonstration.wmv . I thought the standard Yang system also contained a fast form as well, but I could be wrong - it is mentioned on the Gin Soon TaiChi site http://www.gstaichi.org/english/curriculum.php
That's the same form, commonly called the 'Long Boxing' form also referred to on Peter Lims site. I originally learned it from Chu Gin Soon and then had it corrected from Ma Lee Yang via James Uglow.
Steve- I have only seen the two very short clips of Vincent Chu demonstrating it. From what I can see, there is some combat methodology in there. I'd like to see more of the form to see if it has a Chen connection Fatboy-Thanks for the clip. It's interesting. But what's up with the lineage? The clip is in the Wu section, but says the guy is a student of Wu Tu Nan, which woul'd make it Yang's lineage. The form is clearly Wu Jian Quan style tho, done by someone with experience in Chen. Surely they cannot mean Wu Tu Nan of the Yang lineage. If they do, they just got caught lying.
The guy in the clip is master Sim Po Huat, former student of Wu Tu Nan, apparently he also had extensive experience with some shaolin art, ba gua and xing yi. That’s about all I know of him. Edit: If you check out the video section of the Bulgarian version of the site Fatb0y posted ( http://www.taiji-bg.com/bg/video.htm ), there are tons more videos there of all sorts of people and styles.
WTN trained Wu style and Yang style, I believe the form shown is the Fast form known as the small frame from Yang Shou Hou. There is much confusion in this area though - perhaps someone with greater knowledge could comment. It's probably under the Wu section for the reason that WTN main teacher was a Wu style teacher.
I think that clip originated from me, quite a while ago, I transferred it from a VCD I got and started a thread on it, I wanted to know what form it was. http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30406 I’d trust Mr. Rowe on this one. However, Peter Lim's description of Yang Shao Hou's small frame does sort of match the clips contents. Go figure. Peter Lim’s discussion of Yang Shao Hou’s small frame: http://www.itcca.it/peterlim/yshsmfr.htm
