fajin HI Have you guys seen fajin with the chest? Here is a video of my teacher's teacher, Lin Mo Gen. If you go in around 1min 30sec you can see him fajin with the chest several times. The guy he is pushing with was a new disciple at the time - he is now a master in his own right. Enjoy [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySmzxpUUoco&feature=PlayList&p=9A33058ED32D7F06&playnext=1&index=34"]YouTube - Push hands with Lin Mogen 1[/ame]
Hi Cloudyhands, Great post thanks The way of Generating Fa-jing is the same as I know. "“The whole body should be loose (song). The waist initiates all movements. The qi sinks down to the dantian, then descends into the yongquan, and finally surges into the four limbs." Anybody know where my Yongquan is I'm not familliar with this word??:hat::hat::hat::hat:
It's a projection or long power. it could be a fist and have that effect. Are you using the effect to define your fa jin? Because that seems to be what is causing disagreement about this - you two guys (WTBA) are holding to a particular definition of what fa jin can and can't be that not everyone is sharing. long power = 'push', it's just another way to effect a structure with contact. as well as being about force management. The specific technique or method is not the point for many of us.. ie. whether the power stops short on impact with the structure or goes long and takes the structure with it, whether it's a palm, fist, shoulder, boot. horizontal, vertical etc.
What was in the clip posted by jalan was an example of long power in my opinion - why do you see it as contradictory. Why can't long power not be characterized as explosive ? Why can't a a very hard and fast push for that matter, that sends you back a fair bit be characterized as explosive? The effect it has on the person receiving (the strike or whatever...) But never mind.. Well what ever you do, if you do something at 100% that is as about as 'explosive' as you are ever going to be at it... So to me the descriptions are fairly secondary now re. fajin. Is it that you define percussive strikes as being fa jin, and only percussive striking/ hitting can be called fa jin according to you? Seems to be the case quite frankly. Don't make this about semantics. you could say explode if you want, if YOU really really want, but If you want me to accept that the literal translation and definition of 'fa' is 'explode' then link it please. Give me an independent source. I'm not denying that you can interperet such a connotation in context to martial arts. I've heard it used myself, but don't use such a translation personally any more, as I'm not sure it is particularly accurate literal definition. Looking at some examples of fajin - describing it as explosive is fair enough - the effect of the 'push' by Li Mogen, which you don't like as an example of fa jin in tcc can be described as explosive (it looked like it to me) - maybe ask the guy to describe how it felt, he may say it was explosive, or maybe he would say something else. I don't know.. Pretty obviously though it was not a percussive strike being demonstrated! But explosive can describe many, many a boxers punch I think. So do you accept a hook from Tyson as an example of fajin - because I would.. Which is why I went for a less sensationalist translation/interperatation. It could even be 'fa' is 'to issue forth'. ? Actually I've done the work for you and here's the list I found of how it can be used. to issue seems pretty compatible eh. 1. send 2. emit 3. produce 4. express 5. develop 6. prosper 7. spread 8. uncover 9. become 10. feel 11. leave there are other versions of 'fa' further down . NOT ONE translates actually translates to explode! Neither is it really compatible or can be substituted for one of them. It conveys something literally different, unlike 'issue' for example. Link: http://www.nciku.com/search/all/fa Please feel free to provide a source that shows this definition - explode/explosive. Well what you're sayin is that you can't issue long power with 'explosive' or sudden force. Maybe others can eh. ok so only expressing it a certain way.. ? as in method. way, method what's the difference ? semantics. It makes no difference if you say method of expressing power or way of expressing power. Don't try and play clever ass semantic games with me - you picked the wrong person. I wrote the god damned book pal! Let me remind you, you are the one that want to describe it a specific way, first whoflungdat and now you - hence my use of the word method or technique. But never mind, it seems you want to make it now about vibrating - yet another specific method......... or is that way ?? hmm, the tactic of bringing new descriptions in eh.. so now fa jin is vibrating strikes is it ? .. what a strike does once it goes into someone is not something I'm hugely concerned about here.. What was meant by 'stop short on impact' is a strike that basically goes into someone and stays there - as in not moving them through space which is in contrast to what i mentioned as long power. whether the force reverberates in and around the body, that's another matter which I'm not really discussing. I think what you guys specifically call fa jin I would describe as percussive striking methods - i don't think I'm far off the mark. There is vibrating force/ jin referenced and discussed in CMA/CIMA FYI. People don't refer to it as Fajin however. Hopes that's a bit clearer for you Walmsley.
You guys are making my head hurt :bang: Oh wait that's just because I'm hitting my head against a wall. Does fajin have to do with where from and how the power is generated? Or does it have to do with what the effect is on those that are on the receiving end? If you say it has to do with the effect on those that are on the receiving end, I don't believe you... plain and simple that effect has to do with technique used, the weapon used, and where and when you hit. Give someone a sharp knife, it is going to cut right to the bone, whether you are using explosive power or long power... there is no difference. Put a person in 15th century plate armor, hit them... is explosive power going to be significantly different than long power in effect? If, on the other hand, fajin has to do with where from and how the power is generated, then you can view it as proper structure for generating that power very quickly over a very short distance, even if it is a push, was the power for the push generated over a very short distance and time? Or more specifically, can the power be jammed? Proper structure should not allow the power to be jammed at any weak points. As for pushing, why not? You want dead and injured students? You got to have a way to safely practice, so long as it is realized and taught that the combat techniques are much more damaging.
I agree, long power to me is a method or if you like technique. I think it's called that because of the effect it has. Percussive striking I also see as a method - described as such for the same reason.. because of it's effect. Fajin is simply put 'emitting force'.. End of, as far as I'm concerned - to my mind the effect, method or technique is not the point or the issue and does not define fajin. i got involved primarily because a couple guys have been trying to make it about something more specific. Such as method or technique.. However the only 'specific' thing where tcc is concerned in my opinion is its generally accepted body method - which was well covered with the link to Chen style fajin I posted earlier. And i gave a few thoughts on that. Hope that clears up a bit where i'm coming from RW. Head hurting from discussing tcc here? Feeling a bit frustrating...eh ? LOL, don't say i didn't warn you !
Yongquan or Bubbling Well are 2 of the 5 gates, acupoint Kidney 1, on the sole of the foot (between the 1st & 2nd toe, one third of the distance between the base of the 2nd toe and the heel to be precise :hat So, if you're fajin-ing would presumeably refer to rooting energy (preferably) on the opposing foot to the striking side.
fajin Hi All, You guys have done a good job exploring some definitions of fajin. In my understanding fajin can be used with any "technique" and with any part of the body. Fajin is defined as "issuing" - "energy", although I like the idea behind "uncover" as posted as one translation possibility by cloudhandz. Further fajin can be expressed with both short power and long power - long power being the safer and more polite way to fajin in friendly push hands practice. The most common technique for showing fajin is AN or push, but certainly is not limited to the same. Key points for issuing energy are first having root, secondly - proper structual alignment, and finally-timing with ting jin or listening energy. Of course with all taiji "relax" is the underlying prerequisite - but is redundant to state since the above requirements cannot be achieved without it. Also, fajin is a way of expressing energy but is also in itself a set of "techniques". Various ways of fa jing -ing include templates from physics such as Newton's Cradle, fulcrum, pendulum (like a trebuche/catapult), etc.. If you guys look at some of the best fajin videos on youtube of various masters you can see these details very clearly. Best Wishes Jamie
I note that the proverbial dead horse is yet again being unmercifully flogged. Fade to conclusion. Anthony Walmsley.
Hi cloudy Hands. I would define Fa-jing as a way of generating power, as in the way it is generated in the article you posted. Because Fajing is generated by the waste and the arm remains connected to the waist though out the strike the movement spirals outwards and retracts on impact all strikes in Taiji are circular. Because of the speed of the waist and the connection of the Hand, arm, elbow, shoulder, leg etc. a push is to slow. Therefore I can no more call pushing Fa-jing than I can call a single pane of glass double glazing. I think that because we are on different paths we will never agree, I have seen you move and this defines it more than anything else. (this is not a criticism against you, just that we are very different.) regards
Yes you are right, My understanding is based on experience not on what I have been told and no, not everybody will share that opinion. However, I will happily justify my findings with anybody who wants to hook up and train. We can argue till we're blue in the face, but arm chair Taiji is not my thing. regards
Absolutely.. when you're found out it's better to just fade away, than trying to stick to an explanation that doesn't hold water. You could have taken the upfront route and simply agreed that perhaps what you define as fa jin is different to the accepted standard definition - simply expressing power with orthodox and widely taught taiji movement. Everything else is superfluous to that in defining fajin in everyone else eyes. That much i can pretty much gather from this thread. But instead you prefer to promote the idea that it is indeed more specific than that, such as percussive striking. And that your version of training it somehow trumps or is more correct in defining fajin than what everyone else is doing.. Percussive striking demonstrated by WTBA is certainly a way of expressing power, no argument there. No one is saying it isn't fajin, however you and whoflungdat are the ones claiming that a push or a projection/strike that has 'long power' cannot be defined as expressing power.(for instance) So the onus is on you to support these things. I have provided support for my side of the story. It's a shame you couldn't bring yourself to comment more on what I wrote, rather than focus on my more uncooth moments.. but never mind, i think I get it. cheers
Hi, I think I understand what you're saying here.. But would you also agree that the techniques belong to taiji rather than to fajin. In application it's all about expressing power as best one can through the techniques and methods of taiji.
Well firstly let me commend you on this statement. It's honest and sincere, and saying it how it is. cheers. Cool, and I would (as you know) love to do just that sometime. So please keep me in the loop re. yours and FQs' planned get together. I would be honoured to share some training time with the both of you. I'm not sure why exactly you think a pushh is too slow - maybe that's something i could cvhange your mind about. It's certainly not something that has occured to me before, so I would be happy to test this hypothesis with you in some way. Firstly just let me say 'my path' maybe is not so transparant, or single tracked as you might assume. But.. I would be very happy to see a demonstration of your movement an striking under similar format as those clips of me. Either in person or you could easily provide a clip to support your claim of being different. Of course we're all different and individual on some level. But I am always interested in picking up new things. We'll see if I can't do what you can and under what set ups.. It will be fun, and the best outcome and I'm sure it will be so is that we all learn a little something about something from eachother eh. Now how cool is that. So as i said, please keep me in the loop. cheers
I believe context is important. While I agree with your reasoning here whoflungdat regarding a push... I also believe that it rather than defining Fa-jing, you might be instead limiting its application to a set context. I ask how would, under your experience of Fa-jing, someone use its fundamentals when lying on their back with someone on top of them? Is it even possible? Or how would someone use the fundamentals of Fa-jing when using the Chinese broadsword? The close quarters cutting motions of the broadsword are not "fast" but are "constant". Does Fa-jing only work when standing up on two feet with open hands? Does the structure cease to apply when you have a weapon or are on your back? Or is it something more fundamental that can be used in different contexts?
