hi all Recently ive been really thinking about generation of power which of course brought me to the fajin method. in some karate styles or should i say in some karate practitioners tension is held in the body long after the technique is finished which will cause some power to go back into the body many karate masters are now talking about punching with a relaxed arm and shoulder and to snap the technique and relax imediatly. I read an articale in which mr iwasaki of wado ryu jujutsu kempo said a person must disconnect all his power EVEN BEFORE his technique is finished,thus leaving all force generated inside his opponents body. ive taken many a punch from the tradtional karate method and when there is immediate relaxation of the opponents body it does seem to hurt a lot more. my question is what does it feel like to be on the recieving end of the fajin method.(im not a sicko looking for pain honestly)i extremely interested in correct power generation. ive heard there is quite a different feel to recieving the fajin method a curious fred thanks
It feels like being hit with a brick wall... Because fa jin is produced by being "song" (relaxed..untensed muscles) it has much more of a 'shock' that a punch produces through tension. Sorry, cant do any better than that, it is difficult for me to explain.
Well I've been hit by karate experts - and that really was like being hit by a brick wall. I did JKD for a couple of years once, as a kind of Sunday night hobby. The instructor was superb. He was walking home one night and some nutter came up to him and his friend and said 'do you want a fight?' and then hit him with a brick while he was shrugging. Knowcked him clean out - his mate had to subdue the nutter. Cool lad - he told the story the next day without a hint of trying to hide it. I only mention that because it makes me laugh when people say something is like being hit by a brick wall. Like, er, I just did - oh well. Fajin is a short, sharp release of energy, usually described as 'explosive' but that's way too grand for most of the examples you see. But, short, sharp explosive energy is in karate too - it'sjust a matter of getting the right kind of relaxation - too much tension, obviously, restricts the speed and power. During push hands not ten minites ago my son gave me a short sharp elbow to the chest and it really hurt. On the other hand, a short sharp push with both hands might push you over if you're pushed in the correct direction, without the actual push doing too much damage to your chest. There's a difference between whole body power in a punchm and the short, sharp movements that people might use to push you over or shift your arm - but the two are related in many ways. I can't push any where near as hard as I can cross, for example - why would I be able to? I can't push harder than the karate experts I've met can punch either - why would I be able to? Doesn't make sense. Remember, CMA was a self defence art, and pushing people is a specifically self defence useful idea - as there are often obstacles and things to trip over as you go. I mostly recommend avoiding anyone who tells you they can fajin a short sharp push harder than a serious karate expert can punch.
I also did Wado Ryu for three years when I was a teenager. Once, I saw the instructor knock a man completely over with a punch - the guy was holding one of those big kick shields to his chest, and the instructor reverse punched him and knocked him back a clean few feet, right off his feet, with a good backwards roll - no faking, it was a sweet, sweet shot. That's easily as powerful as any fajin you see.
i hope im not coming across as suggesting that the correct karate method of punching is inferior to fajin or anything of that notion but simply how it feels to recieve the tai chi method. it is true that many karateka punch to stiffly thus making the punch slower and less effective but any karate master will tell you the more relaxed you are the faster you punch thus more power. im just thinking that the fajin method looks so different that it must feel completley different to recieve. maybe someday ill be not so lucky to be on the recieving end of some tai chi masters wrath.
Hi Fred123, Tai Chi punch can feel like being hit with a sledge hammer. Tai Chi punches are relaxed up to the target then some tension - just enough to generate the power required. We have both long power and short power, both can be used for punching. Short power is what Firequan described. Long Power is allowed to run its full extension without stopping it short or recoiling. The theory is that because the punches are delivered in a semi-relaxed way that they penetrate internally into the target instead of dispersing on the surface like a stiff punch tends to do. So a really well done Taiji punch runs the risk of damaging internal organs. The safest way to train Taiji punching is by learning to control different types and amounts of power in the form of pushing. Some other fa jing practice in sword and spear help to develop the correct type of energy for punching as well. As mentioned already, finding the right amount of tension and relaxation - balance of yin and yang is a key. Fixed step push hands really helps to develop this balance. What do you practice? Best
There is nothing mystical about "jing" or "fa jing." "Jing" is just the classical Chinese term/hanzi for "force" or "power." When it comes over to the West, Americans start to fantasize about chi blasts and other magical powers. It's just a word, seriously. Who has good jing? Boxers do. Thai boxers. Kyokushin and full contact Karate stylists. Sanda fighters. There are a lot of skilled traditional CMA guys that do, that I've touched hands with. Anyone that has done extensive striking training in their life would have good jing. If you train 5 hours a day, 6 days a week, and spend at least 25% of your time punching a heavy bag, you WILL develop some wicked, powerful jing.
They have all this in western boxing too. Southern Mantis (actually all the Hakka hands), Xing Yi, Baji, CLF, everything. Seriously, let's be real. ANYONE can learn "fa jing." Fa jing is just two chinese words man. They don't really mean anything. Fa jing = release energy. That's it. There's seriously . . . nothing more to it.
hi jalan7 i practice karate and aikido.im particularly interested in asai karate which has emphasis on naturalness, snap and relaxation to put it to simply thanks for the reply.what you have metioned has been interesting and helpful
There is different ways of generating power and different systems have different approaches hence the disscusion.
Right, and none of them are "wrong" in their approach, just different. But at the end of the day gung fu is skill, and fa jing is the ability to USE that skill to generate power and hurt someone.
yes indeed they are different thats exactly why different methods and principles can be dissussed.agreed? so to say "fa jing = release energy, thats it" stops a dissussion stone dead so u could say were discussing different approaches,principles and methods to develop power and not a word(fa jing). thats fair enough isnt?
Like I say, you might find that it feels less powerful than a karate shot, but does something different - like, catches you off balance and pushes you over. Beware appointing expectations and then expecting them to be fulfilled! We get the real truth when we dis-appoint our expectations and see things for what they realy are. For example, in push hands, some times people will use two or three short, light movements to trick you in to stiffening, mover your arms or body in to an off balanced position, and then push you back- none of the shots might be any where near as powerful as a karate punch; but they don't need to be if they push you back when your feet are in a weak position.
In terms of ideas like 'an internal master can damage your internal organs', there's two things to say on that. One, this sentence is often used like 'internal masters do this, while boxers do that,' yadda yadda. When in reality, that's effectively saying 'internal masters are not only as good as, but probably BETTER than fighters like boxers, muay thai, etc.' When in reality, there are hundreds of thousands of videos, competitions, examples of boxers, muay thai, etc., displaying extremely powerful punching, and, well, so far, at the last count, er, zero examples of any IMA 'master' displaying a similar, never mind greater, level of power in a public demo or fight that's been filmed. This is because the power is invisible - apparently. Most of the people who wax lyrical on that subject have nothing like the power they are insisting is real, and know zero about it, in reality. Secondly, any sufficiently powerful punch can damage you internally. CPR can get your heart going, so that tells you just how easy it is to affect your heart, for example. Fantasies of 'different kinds' of punches that penetrate you with penetration energy, spreading out and damaging your internal organs are just like most penetration fantasies - a Freudian desrie, stiffled and repressed in to a bizzare fixation. Having said that, there are of course different ways of delivering a punch - any one can experiment with that, trying different methods from completely stiffening the body all the way through to completely relaxing. 'Whole body' power is utilized in most serious martial arts, but again, there are different levels of commitment you can use - like, you can exaggerate the movement, Yiquan style, which gets a lot of power in the movement but on the downside slows down the delivery of the next punch because you commit to a big body movement in one direction. Or, you can make that mover smaller, gaining more combination speed. Even in the same style you see variations suited to differet people. And some people aren't great at punching and need training. Beware - taiji has a big fantasy life. Don't get drawn in to it.
At some point, you have to sit down and think, you're criticising all the realy powerful martial artists, like karate, boxing and muay thai, saying that in time they come to do it like you - which, in effect, is saying that your method is superior. Which, in effect, is saying that you are superior - that you are more powerful than those external stylists. But, are you? Seriously - where is the evidence that this method is superior? WHat are we basing these tacit claims on?
I really disagree about such categories, they set up dichotomies which can't ultimately be justified. It's all one continuum of refinement in my opinion. Training methods differ in emphasis - to that I'll agree. I would also agree to what I see as correctly defining the terms nei and wei as mental and physical. However I wouldn't arrive at 2 categories of trained and refined force. Boxers, wrestlers etc. use the whole body too, if they're doing it right, - and invariably they do! want proof - just take a look at Mike Tyson hitting people. It honest to goodness, doesn't stand up to scrutiny..
Over here in pedant's corner, of course, it is well understood that Jing = essence and jin = power. But I guess it's all Ying and Yan :hat:
What it feels like, IME, depends on which technique is used. Some techniques feel like an internal organ is being "squeezed." It is an immediate pain and sickening weakness brought to the body, which just collapses down. These techniques are similar to doing "CPR" on an organ. Some techniques hurt just the same as a karate punch because they use the knuckles to focus the power. I don't think it is accurate to say that a karate punch is different in what it should feel like. Way back in karate, I remember being told the punch was like a whip... relaxed and done with the whole body. The part that is different than what people have been posting is that the whip was the whole body, not something done by snapping the fist back or anything like that (which I think is not good to do). Even more specifically, I was taught that "the whip was in the hips". The hips had to learn to move in a figure eight like motion, in a very relaxed manner, smaller and faster figure eight as the person got better. So all this talk about snapping was taught to me mainly to mean relaxation and proper training of using the hips in striking. As for what a hit does... it is mostly the law of inverse squares, e.g. half the area, four times the force... one third the area, nine times the force, etc. The force of the punch in placed on one or two knuckles and this hurts a lot more than if you hit with the whole hand, etc. Then it matters what you hit and at what angle, and etc. Things such as Tai Chi I've been learning to generate power at distances closer than normal elbow ranges. This involves changing pivot points and structured training to make my circles smaller and faster. I would say the key here is that people don't expect the power to be so effectively used at that distance, so it catches people off guard. That's why such techniques such as "doing CPR" on an organ work so well... because people don't expect it so they aren't able to prepare as well for it. When you start to get further away, people expect more power and these techniques lose a lot of their practicality. Then it comes down to more just variations of the same techniques used in external methods of training, IME.
